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Put Christ back in Christmas?

 
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Put Christ back in Christmas? - 12/18/2006 7:29:11 AM   
bibleteen04


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I was wondering, why are people saying put christ back in christmas when in history christmas did not mean a celebration of christ's birth untill the church christianized a pagan celebration known as winter solstice? In other words, why put Christ back into something He wasn't in to begin with?
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RE: Put Christ back in Christmas? - 12/19/2006 3:12:05 PM   
*JeSuS*i*TrUsT*iN*yOu*


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Your facts are incorrect. The early Church decided to celebrate Christ's birth on December 25th to "counteract" the already-existing pagan celebration of Saturnalia. The idea was that holding the celebration of our Lord's Nativity at the same time as Saturnalia might draw converts to the Church. Other than that, Saturnalia and Christmas have no correlation.
Christmas always was and still is, essentially, a celebration of Christ's coming into the world. It never has been about pagan gods or anything like that.

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RE: Put Christ back in Christmas? - 12/19/2006 8:44:09 PM   
Saratina


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because Christ should be at the center of everything.




also because it's a spiffy little catchphrase that we can all mindlessly parrot in order to let everyone know that we are more spiritual than them omv.
but mostly because Christ is at the center of everything.


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RE: Put Christ back in Christmas? - 12/19/2006 10:31:29 PM   
bibleteen04


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Ok. so my facts are slightly confused. Still, it seems to me that Christmas isn't really about Christ, it is about generosity, and kind heartedness mixed with pagan practices that the bible forbids (like christmas trees, for instance). Not to mention that the idea of gift giving during a holiday(thou shalt not covet),  originated in a pagan custom, the lies that are told to children about santa clause (which violates the commandment "thou shalt not bear false witness") Worshiping the baby christ child in the nativity set (thou shalt not have any other gods before me, thou shalt not make a graven image of anything in heaven or earth and bow down to worship it...) Setting up a christmas tree, and admiring it to christmas music like "oh christmas tree..." while turning off all the lights to admire the tree... 
Everything I have mentioned seems to violate the law that God gave us to understand what is pleasing to him and what isn't. Why don't we ever put God first in christmas, especcially when we say it is suppose to be about him in the first place? Something tells me that it really isn't about christ at all. It is about us - to make us feel better about ourselves, as we give to others - only to receive presents for ourselves on christmas morning. If christ was in christmas, we would wake up christmas morning thanking God for his provision rather than running to un-open christmas packages and stuffing ourselves with turkey and ham.  So, ask yourselves - what  is the truth about christmas?
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=the+truth+about+christmas

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RE: Put Christ back in Christmas? - 12/20/2006 11:44:49 PM   
Saratina


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if Christmas is about worshipping a tree, it is because you are making it about worshipping a tree. Christmas is only going to be about Christ if you make it so. simple as that. 

quote:

Ok. so my facts are slightly confused. Still, it seems to me that Christmas isn't really about Christ, it is about generosity, and kind heartedness


there is no rule book that states "Christmas is about thus." generosity and kindheartedness are parts of the Christmas celebration for a lot of people. for some people, they aren't.

quote:

mixed with pagan practices that the bible forbids (like christmas trees, for instance)


where did you come up with the idea that the Bible forbids Christmas trees?

quote:

Not to mention that the idea of gift giving during a holiday(thou shalt not covet),


who said anything about coveting? the Bible encourages giving. and Jesus was big on the whole "I'm not going to refrain from doing good just because it's a so-called 'special day'" thing.

quote:

the lies that are told to children about santa clause (which violates the commandment "thou shalt not bear false witness")


again, this is only if you make it so. most of the people I know, myself included, were told the truth about santa claus from the beginning.

quote:

Worshiping the baby christ child in the nativity set (thou shalt not have any other gods before me, thou shalt not make a graven image of anything in heaven or earth and bow down to worship it...)


we are not worshipping the baby in the nativity o.O

quote:

Setting up a christmas tree, and admiring it to christmas music like "oh christmas tree..." while turning off all the lights to admire the tree...


you have a point. noting the beauty of God's creation, set to music, no less! God would be ashamed.

quote:

Why don't we ever put God first in christmas, especcially when we say it is suppose to be about him in the first place?


who is this 'we'?

quote:

Something tells me that it really isn't about christ at all. It is about us - to make us feel better about ourselves, as we give to others - only to receive presents for ourselves on christmas morning. If christ was in christmas, we would wake up christmas morning thanking God for his provision rather than running to un-open christmas packages and stuffing ourselves with turkey and ham.


you really are making a gross generalization. not to speak for everyone else, but my family and I wake up Christmas morning thanking God for His provision.
(we open presents on Christmas Eve anyway ^-^)
gift-giving is symbolic of the gift God gave to us. there is absolutely nothing wrong with it.

the truth about Christmas is that it is an opportunity to reflect on everything God's given to us. finis.


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RE: Put Christ back in Christmas? - 12/21/2006 7:04:04 PM   
strivin4christ


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bibleteen04

Ok. so my facts are slightly confused. Still, it seems to me that Christmas isn't really about Christ, it is about generosity, and kind heartedness mixed with pagan practices that the bible forbids (like christmas trees, for instance). Not to mention that the idea of gift giving during a holiday(thou shalt not covet),  originated in a pagan custom, the lies that are told to children about santa clause (which violates the commandment "thou shalt not bear false witness") Worshiping the baby christ child in the nativity set (thou shalt not have any other gods before me, thou shalt not make a graven image of anything in heaven or earth and bow down to worship it...) Setting up a christmas tree, and admiring it to christmas music like "oh christmas tree..." while turning off all the lights to admire the tree... 
Everything I have mentioned seems to violate the law that God gave us to understand what is pleasing to him and what isn't. Why don't we ever put God first in christmas, especcially when we say it is suppose to be about him in the first place? Something tells me that it really isn't about christ at all. It is about us - to make us feel better about ourselves, as we give to others - only to receive presents for ourselves on christmas morning. If christ was in christmas, we would wake up christmas morning thanking God for his provision rather than running to un-open christmas packages and stuffing ourselves with turkey and ham.  So, ask yourselves - what  is the truth about christmas?
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=the+truth+about+christmas


I'm sorry, all those things seem way wrong and exagerated to me.
I do not agree at all.




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RE: Put Christ back in Christmas? - 12/21/2006 9:24:31 PM   
bibleteen04


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http://www.cog21.org/site/cog_archives/booklets/PTXMAS.htm
quote:






"The PLAIN TRUTH about CHRISTMAS!"


 

   Where did we get Christmas?...from the Bible, or paganism?
   Here are astonishing FACTS which may shock you!
  Do you know the origin of the Christmas tree -- of "Santa Claus," -- of the mistletoe, holly-wreath, -- custom of exchanging gifts?

   Does Christmas really celebrate the birthday of Jesus? Was He born on December 25th? Did Paul, the apostles, and the early Church of the New Testament celebrate Christmas? Do you know what the BIBLE says about the Christmas tree?
  Stop and think! Very few know WHY we do the things we do, or WHERE our customs came from! We were born into a world filled with customs. We grew up practicing them, taking them for granted, but NEVER QUESTIONING WHY!

A PAGAN, Not Christian Festival
   We have supposed CHRISTMAS to be the chief of the Christian holidays. Without asking questions, we have blindly assumed its observance must be one of the principle teachings and commands of the New Testament. We have supposed Jesus was born December 25th, and that the New Testament set this day aside as the chief Christian festival. We have supposed we exchange gifts because the wise men presented gifts to the Christ-child.
  But, let’s quit supposing, and look into history and the Bible for the FACTS!
  The word "Christmas" means "Mass of Christ" or. as it later became shortened, "Christ-Mass." It came to us as a Roman Catholic mass. And where did they get it? From the HEATHEN celebration of December 25th, as the birthday of Sol the SUN-GOD! It is, actually, an ancient rite of BAALISM, which the Bible condemns as the most abominable of all idolatrous worship!
  It is not so much as MENTIONED anywhere in the New Testament. It was never observed by Paul, the apostles, the early true Christian church!
  The idea that Jesus was born December 25th, is one of the FABLES the Apostle Paul prophesied (II Tim. 4:4) would deceive the world in these latter days.
  The plain truth is, Christmas is NOT Christ’s birthday at all! And this festival, important as it seems to so many, is not of Christian, but of pagan— Babylonish—origin! But does that make any difference? Isn’t it all right to go ahead and observe it anyway? Isn’t the "Christmas SPIRIT" a good and splendid thing, regardless of how it got started? WE SHALL SEE!

Jesus NOT Born December 25th
   Now let’s look to the interesting PROOF! When was Jesus born?
  Jesus was not even born in the winter season! When the Christ-child was born "there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night" (Luke 2:8). This never could have occurred in Palestine in the month of December. The shepherds always brought their flocks from the mountain sides and fields and corralled them not later than October 15, to protect them from the cold rainy season that followed that date. Notice that the Bible itself proves in Song of Solomon 2:11, and Ezra 10:9, and 13, that winter was a rainy season not permitting shepherds to abide in open fields at night.
  It was an ancient custom among Jews of those days to send out their sheep to the fields and deserts about the Passover (early-spring), and bring them home at commencement of the first rain, says the Adam Clarke Commentary, Vol. 5., page 386.
  Continuing, this authority states: "during the time they were out, the shepherds watched them night and day. As. . . the first rain began early in the month of Marchesvan, which answers to part of our October and November [begins mid October], we find that the sheep were kept out in the open country during the whole summer. And, as these shepherds had not yet brought home their flocks, it is a presumptive argument that October had not yet commenced, and that, consequently, our Lord was not born on the 25th, of December, when no flocks were out in the fields; nor could He have been born later than September, as the flocks were still in the fields by night. On this very ground, the nativity in December should be given up. The feeding of the flocks by night in the fields is a chronological fact... See the quotations from the Talmudists in Lightfoot."
  Any encyclopedia, or any other authority, will tell you that Christ was not born on December 25. The Catholic Encyclopedia frankly states this fact.
  The exact date of Jesus’ birth is entirely UNKNOWN, as all authorities acknowledge—though if I had space in this booklet I could show you Scriptures which at least strongly indicate that it was in the early fall—probably September—approximately six months after Passover.
  If God had wished us to observe and celebrate Christ’s birthday, He would not have so completely hidden the exact date.

What Encyclopedias Say
   There is not one word in the New Testament, or anywhere in the Bible, telling us to observe Christmas. The Christians of the first century, under the inspired teachings of Peter and Paul and the other apostles, never observed it. There is NO BIBLE AUTHOR1TY for its observance, strange as it may seem.
  Then where did we get "Christmas"? Since it has come to us thru the Roman Catholic Church, and has no authority but that of the Roman Catholic Church, let us examine the Catholic Encyclopedia, published by that Church. Under the caption "Christmas," you will find:
  "Christmas was not among the earliest festivals of the Church.. . The first evidence of the feast is from Egypt." "Pagan customs centering around the January calends gravitated to Christmas." And, further, we find this truth acknowledged:".. . in the Scripture, sinners alone, not saints, celebrate their birthday.
  Encyclopedia Britannica has this: "Christmas (i.e., the Mass of Christ). Christmas was not among the earliest festivals of the church It was not instituted by Christ or the apostles, or by Bible authority—it was picked up afterward from paganism.
  The Encyclopedia Americana says: "CHRISTMAS. It was, according to many authorities, not celebrated in the first centuries of the Christian church, as the Christian usage in general was to celebrate the death of remarkable persons rather than their birth (The "Communion" which is instituted by New Testament Bible authority, is a memorial of the DEATH of Christ.) ". . . a feast was established in memory of this event [Christ’s birth] in the fourth century. In the fifth century the Western Church ordered it to be celebrated forever on the day of the old Roman feast of the birth of Sol, as no certain knowledge of the day of Christ’s birth existed?’

HOW This Pagan Custom Got Into The Church
   Now notice! These recognized historic authorities show Christmas was NOT observed by Christians for the first two or three hundred years—a period longer than the entire history of the United States as a nation! It got into the Western, or Roman Church, by the FOURTH century A.D. It was not until the FIFTH century that the Roman Church ordered it to be celebrated as an official "Christian" festival!
  Then HOW did this heathen custom CREEP INTO a so-called Christianity?
  The Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia explains it clearly, in its article on "CHRISTMAS:" "How much the date of the festival depended upon the Pagan Brumalia (Dec. 25) following the Saturnalia (Dec. 17-24), and celebrating the shortest day of the year and the "new sun" . . . cannot be accurately determined. The pagan Saturnalia and Brumalia were too deeply entrenched in popular custom to be set aside by Christian influence . . . The pagan festival with its riot and merrymaking was so popular that Christians were glad of an excuse to continue its celebration with little change in spirit and in manner. Christian preachers of the West and the Near East protested against the unseemly frivolity with which Christ’s birthday was celebrated, while Christians of Mesopotamia
accused their Western brethren of idolatry and sun-worship for adopting as Christian this pagan festival."
   Remember, the Roman world had been PAGAN. Prior to the fourth century, Christians were few in number, though increasing, and were persecuted by the government and by pagans. But, with the advent of Constantine as emperor, who made his profession of Christianity, in the fourth century, placing Christianity on an equal footing with paganism, people of the Roman world began to accept this now popular Christianity by the hundreds of thousands.
  But remember, these people had grown up in PAGAN customs, chief of which was this idolatrous festival of December 25th. It was a festival of merrymaking, with is special SPIRIT. They ENJOYED it! They didn’t want to give it up! Now this same article in Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia explains how the recognition by Constantine, of Sunday, which had been the day of pagan SUN-worship, and how the influence of the pagan Manichaeism, which identified the SON of God with the physical SUN, gave these pagans of the fourth century, now turning over wholesale to "Christianity", their EXCUSE for calling their pagan-festival date of December 25th (birthday of the SUN-god), the birthday of the SON of God.
  And that is how "Christmas" got into our so-called Christianity! We may call it by another NAME, but it’s the same old pagan sun-worshipping festival still! The only CHANGE is in what we CALL IT! You can call a rabbit a "LION," but it’s a RABBIT, just the same.
  Again from the Britannica: "Certain Latins, as early as 354, may have transferred the birthday from January 6th to December 25, which was then a Mithraic feast, . . . or birthday of the unconquered SUN. . . The Syrians and Armenians, who clung to January 6th, accused the Romans of SUN-WORSHIP and IDOLATRY, contending that the feast of December 25th, had been invented by disciples of Cerinthus..?’

The Real ORIGIN of Christmas
   But if we got Christmas from the Roman Catholics, and they got it from paganism, where did the pagans get it? Where, when, and what was its real origin?
  It is a chief custom of the corrupt system denounced all thru Bible prophecies and teachings under the name of BABYLON. And it started and originated in the original Babylon of ancient Nimrod! Yes, it stems from roots whose beginning was shortly this side of the flood!
  Nimrod, grandson of Ham, son of Noah, was the real founder of the Babylonish system that has gripped the world ever since—the system of organized competition—of man-ruled governments and empires, based upon the competitive and profit-making economic system. Nimrod built the tower of Babel, the original Babylon, ancient Nineveh, and many other cities. He organized this world’s first kingdom. The name Nimrod, in Hebrew, is derived from "Marad’ meaning "he rebelled." (Gen. 10:6,8-12)
  From many ancient writings, considerable is learned of this man, who started the great organized worldly apostasy from God that has dominated this world until now. Nimrod was so evil, it is said he married his own mother, whose name was Semiramis. After Nimrod’s untimely death, his so-called mother-wife, Semiramis, propagated the evil doctrine of the survival of Nimrod as a spirit being. She claimed a full-grown evergreen tree sprang over- night from a dead tree stump, which symbolized the springing forth unto new life of the dead Nimrod. On each anniversary of his birth, she claimed, Nimrod would visit the evergreen tree and leave gifts upon it. December 25th, was the birthday of Nimrod. This is the real origin of the Christmas tree.
  Thru her scheming and designing, Semiramis became the Babylonian "Queen of Heaven," and Nimrod, under various names, became the "divine son of heaven." Thru the generations, in this idolatrous worship, Nimrod also became the false Messiah, son of Baal the Sun-god. In this false Babylonish system, the "Mother and Child", (Semiramis and Nimrod reborn); became chief objects of worship. This worship of "Mother and Child" spread over the world. The names varied in different countries and languages. In Egypt it was Iris and Osiris. In Asia, Cybele and Deoius. In Pagan Rome, Fortuna and Jupiterpuer. Even in Greece, China, Japan, Tibet are to be found the counterpart of the Madonna, long before the birth of Christ!
  Thus, during the fourth and fifth centuries, when the pagans of the Roman world were ‘accepting" the new popular "Christianity" by the hundreds of thousands, carrying their old pagan customs and beliefs along with them, merely cloaking them with Christian-sounding NAMES, the Madonna and "Mother and Child" idea also became popularized, especially at Christmas time. Every Christmas season you’ll hear sung and chanted dozens of times the hymn "Silent Night, Holy Night," with its familiar "Mother and Child" theme. We, who have been born in such a babylonish world, reared and steeped in these things all our lives, have been taught to revere these things as holy, and sacred.
WE NEVER QUESTIONED TO SEE WHERE THEY CAME FROM—WHETHER THEY CAME FROM THE BIBLE, OR FROM PAGAN IDOLATRY!
   We are SHOCKED to learn the TRUTH—some, unfortunately, take offense at the PLAIN TRUTH! But God commands His faithful ministers, "CRY ALOUD, spare not, lift up thy voice like a trumpet, and SHOW MY PEOPLE THEIR TRANSGRESSIONS!" Shocking as these facts are, they are the plain facts of history and the Bible!
  The real origin of Christmas goes back to the ancient Babylon. It is bound up in the organized apostasy with which Satan has gripped a deceived world these many centuries! In Egypt, it was always believed that the son of Iris (Egyptian name for "Queen of Heaven") was born December 25th. Paganism celebrated this famous birthday over most of the known world for centuries before the birth of Christ.
  December 25th, is NOT the birthday of Jesus the true Christ! The apostles and early true Church never celebrated Christ’s birthday at any time. There is no command or instruction to celebrate it in the Bible— rather, the celebrating of birthdays is a HEATHEN, not a Christian custom, believe it or not!
  Nowhere does the Bible tell us to worship "Mother and Child." The apostles and early true Christians never did it! The Scriptures show an angel saying to Mary, "Hail, thou art highly favored, the Lord is with thee"—the addition "blessed art thou among women," is omitted in the best original manuscripts (in Greek). Elizabeth said to Mary, "Blessed art thou among women." And Mary herself said, "From henceforth all generations shall call me blessed" (Luke 1:28, 42, 48).
  She was highly blessed by God, and this has been acknowledged by all generations from that time—but this does not mean she is to be deified, worshiped, made a divine being, when she was merely human. The wide-spread worship of Mary, as "the Mother of God," the doctrine of the immaculate conception, which refers to her a counterfeit mediatrix between man and God, is a continuation of this ancient Babylonian idolatry, begun by the clever deceptions of Semiramis, wife of Nimrod! It is inextricably bound up with the "Christmas" idea!
  Thus the ancient idolatrous "Chaldean Mysteries", founded by this wife of Nimrod, have been handed down thru the pagan religions into the Catholic Church under new Christian-sounding names, and from there into the Protestant denominations and on to all of us today!

Origin of Holly Wreath, Mistletoe, Yule Log
   Now where did we get this MISTLETOE custom? Among the ancient pagans the mistletoe was used at this festival of the winter solstice because it was considered sacred to the SUN, because of its supposed miraculous healing power. The pagan custom of kissing under the mistletoe was an early step in the night of revelry and drunken debauchery—celebrating the death of the "old sun" and the birth of the new at the winter solstice. Mistletoe, sacred in pagan festivals, is a PARASITE!
  Holly berries were also considered sacred to the sun-god. The Yule log is in reality the "sun log". "Yule" means "wheel:’ a pagan symbol of the sun. Yet today professing Christians speak of the "sacred YULETIDE season!"
  Even the lighting of fires and candles as a Christian ceremony is merely a continuation of the pagan custom, encouraging the waning sun-god as he reached the lowest place in the southern skies!
   The Americana says: "The holly, the mistletoe, the Yule log . . . are relics of pre-Christian times." "PAGANISM!" The book. Answers to Questions, compiled by Frederick J. Haskins, found in public libraries, says: "The use of Christmas wreaths is believed by authorities to be traceable to the pagan customs of decorating buildings and places of worship at the feast which took place at the same time as Christmas. The Christmas tree is from Egypt, and its origin dates from a period long anterior to the Christmas Era?’

Yes, and Even SANTA CLAUS!
   But surely dear old Santa Claus is not a creature of pagan birth? But he IS, and his real character is not so benevolent and holy as many suppose!
  The name "Santa Claus" is a corruption of the name "St. Nicholas:’ a Roman Catholic bishop who lived in the 5th century. Look in the Encyclopedia Britannica, Vol. 19, pages 648-9, 11th edition, where you’ll read: "St. Nicholas, bishop of Myra, . . . a saint honored by the Greeks and Latins on the sixth of December . . . A legend of his surreptitious bestowal of dowries on the three daughters of an impoverished citizen . . . is said to have originated the old custom of giving presents in secret on the eve of St. Nicholas [Dec. 6]. SUBSEQUENTLY TRANSFERRED TO CHRISTMAS DAY. Hence the association of Christmas with Santa Claus.
  Thru the year, parents punish their children for telling falsehoods. Then, at Christmas time, they themselves tell their little children this "Santa Claus" lie! Is it any wonder many of them, when they grow up and learn the truth, begin to believe God is a myth, too?
  One little fellow, sadly disillusioned about "Santa Claus," said to a playmate, "Yes, and I’m going to look into this ‘Jesus Christ business,’ too!" Is it CHRISTIAN to teach children myths and falsehoods? God says, "Thou shalt not bear FALSE WITNESS!" It may seem right, and be justified by human reason, but God says, "There is a way that seemeth RIGHT to a man, but the end thereof are the ways of DEATH!" "Old Nick" also is a term for the devil! Is there a connection? Satan appears as an "angel of LIGHT:’ to deceive!
  And so when we examine the facts, we are astonished to learn that the practice of observing Christmas is not, after all, a true Christmas practice, but a pagan custom—one of the ways of BABYLON our people have fallen into!

What the Bible Says About the Christmas Tree!
   But if the Bible is silent about telling us to observe CHRISTMAS, or recording any such observance by the apostles or early true Church, it does have something to say about the Christmas tree!
  This will come as a real surprise to many. But here it is:
  Jeremiah 10: 1-6 "Thus saith the Lord, Learn not the way of the heathen. . . For the customs of the people are vain; for one cutteth a TREE out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not?’
  There is a perfect description of the Christmas tree, termed by the Eternal as "the way of the heathen—the custom of the people." We are commanded NOT to learn that way or follow it! It is also viewed in this passage as idolatry. The fifth verse shows that these trees cannot speak—cannot walk—must be carried. "Be not afraid of them, for they (the trees) cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good?’ They are not gods to be feared. Some people mis-read this to make it say there is no harm in having a Christmas tree, but that is not what it says.

Isn’t Exchanging GIFTS Scriptural?
   But when it comes to the most important part of all in this Christmas observance—the Christmas SHOPPING season—the buying arid exchanging of GIFTS—many will exclaim triumphantly, "Well, at least the Bible tells us to do THAT! Didn’t the wise men give gifts when Christ was born?"
  Again, we are due for some SURPRISES, when we learn the PLAIN TRUTH! First, let’s look at the historic origin of trading gifts back and forth, then see exactly what the Bible does say about it.
  From the Bibliotheca Sacra, Vol. 12. pages 153- 155, we quote. "The interchange of presents between friends is alike characteristic of Christmas and the Saturnalia, and must have been adopted by Christians from the Pagans, as the admonition of Tertullian plainly shows."
  The fact is, this custom fastened upon people of exchanging gifts with friends and relatives at the Christmas season has not a single trace of Christianity about it! Strange though that may seem! This does NOT celebrate Christ’s birthday or honor it or Him! Suppose someone you love has a birthday. You want to honor that person on his or her birthday. Would you lavishly buy gifts for everyone else, trading gifts back and forth with all your other friends and loved ones, but IGNORE COMPLETELY any gift for the one whose birthday you are honoring’? Rather absurd, when viewed in that light, isn’t it?
  Yet this is exactly what people the world over are doing! They honor a day that is NOT Christ’s birthday by spending every dime they can scrape together in buying presents to trade back and forth among friends and relatives. But I can say by years of experience, as I believe most pastors and ministers can say, that when the month of December rolls around, nearly all professing Christians forget to give gifts to CHRIST and HIS CAUSE almost altogether!
  Now consider what the Bible says about giving gifts when Christ was born. It is in Matthew 2:1-11. "Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem, saying Where is he that is born King of the Jews?. . . And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshiped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto HIM gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh."

WHY Gifts Presented to Christ
   Notice, they inquired for the child Jesus, who was born KING of the Jews! Now WHY did they present gifts to Him? Because it was His birthday? Not at all, because they came several days after the date of his birth! Was it to set an example for US, today, to trade gifts back and forth among ourselves? No, notice carefully !—they did not exchange gifts among themselves, but "they presented unto HIM gifts." They gave THEIR gifts to CHRIST, not to their friends, relatives, or one-another!
  WHY? Let me quote from the Adam Clarke Commentary Vol. 5, page 46: "Verse 11. (They presented unto him gifts). The people of the east never approach the presence of kings and great personages, without a present in their hands. The custom is often noticed in the Old Testament, and still prevails in the east, and in some of the newly discovered South Sea Islands?’
  There it is! They were not instituting a NEW Christian custom of exchanging gifts with friends to honor Christ’s birthday. They were following an OLD and ANCIENT eastern custom of presenting gifts to a KING when they come into his presence. They were approaching Him, born KING of the Jews, in person. Therefore custom required they present GIFTS—even as the Queen of Sheba brought gifts to Solomon—even as many people today take a gift along when they visit the White House for an appointment with the President.
  No, the custom of TRADING GIFTS back and forth does not stem from this Scriptural incident at all, but rather, as quoted from history above, it is the continuance of an ancient PAGAN custom. Instead of honoring Christ, it invariably RETARDS His work, often sets it back, at the Christmas season every year!

We’re IN BABYLON, and Haven’t KNOWN IT!
   Christmas has become a COMMERCIAL season. It’s sponsored, kept alive, by the heaviest retail advertising campaign of the year. You see a masqueraded "Santa Claus" in many stores. Ads keep us deluded and deceived about the "beautiful Christmas SPIRIT." The newspapers, who sell the ads, print flowery editorials exalting and eulogizing the pagan season, and its "spirit." A gullible people has become so inoculated, many take offense when told the TRUTH! But the "Christmas SPIRIT" is created each year, not to honor Christ, but to SELL MERCHANDISE! Like all Satan’s delusions, it appears as an "angel of LIGHT’ is made to appear GOOD. BILLIONS OF DOLLARS are spent in this merchandising spree every year, while the CAUSE OF CHRIST must SUFFER! It’s part of the economic system of BABYLON!
  We are God’s people ISRAEL! Yes, we’re IN BABYLON, as Bible prophecy foretold, and we don’t know it! Come OUT of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her SINS, and that ye receive not of HER PLAGUES"—now soon to fall—is the warning of Rev. 18:4.


http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/christm3.htm

http://www.lasttrumpetministries.org/tracts/tract3.html
http://www.cornerstone1.org/b-christmas.htm
http://www.gnmagazine.org/christmas/?S=2
http://www.gnmagazine.org/issues/gn61/christmas.htm
http://www.gnmagazine.org/issues/gn67/christmas.htm
http://madrid.craigslist.org/pol/236228278.html
http://www.women24.com/Women24/Life/BodySoul/Article/0,,1-2-4_8538,00.html
http://www.truthforachange.info/articles/xmess.php
http://bibleworld.com/christmas.htm
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/99801/the_real_christmas.html
quote:

  
http://www.letgodbetrue.com/bible/holidays/christmas.htm
Reasons not to celebrate christmas:
1. Because . . . the LORD condemns using pagan religious practices in His worship (Deut 12:29-31).
2. Because . . . the LORD condemns adding to or taking away from His commandments (Deut 12:32).
3. Because . . . the LORD condemns doing anything under green trees in His worship (Deut 12:1-4).
4. Because . . . the LORD condemns the heathen use of decorated trees at a solstice (Jeremiah 10:1-4).
5. Because . . . the LORD commands us to separate from and not touch pagan religion (II Cor 6:14-18).
6. Because . . . the LORD commands us to come out of Roman Catholicism and her sins (Rev 18:4).
7. Because . . . the LORD condemns turning to the left or right from His commandments (Deu 5:32-33).
8. Because . . . the LORD told the apostles to teach us to observe only His commandments (Matt 28:20).
9. Because . . . the LORD rejected David's worship for a small detail and killed Uzzah (II Sam 6:1-10).
10. Because . . . the LORD rejected and killed Nadab and Abihu for offering different fire (Lev 10:1-7).
11. Because . . . the LORD rejected Moses from seeing Canaan for a slight modification (Num 20:12).
12. Because . . . the LORD rejected Cain's worship simply for bringing an alternative sacrifice (Gen 4:7).
13. Because . . . the LORD rejected Saul forever for noble intentions in a modification (I Sam 15:22-23).
14. Because . . . the LORD rejected Uzziah and gave him facial leprosy for a new idea (II Chr 26:16-21).
15. Because . . . the LORD rejected and killed Ananias and his wife for fudging a large gift (Acts 5:1-11).
16. Because . . . the LORD requires reverence and godly fear in worship to avoid His fire (He 12:28-29).
17. Because . . . the LORD seeks true worshippers to worship Him in truth, not superstition (Jn 4:23-24).
18. Because . . . the LORD commands us to earnestly contend for the faith once delivered (Jude 1:3).
19. Because . . . the LORD requires us to esteem all His precepts but to hate all other ideas (Ps 119:128).
20. Because . . . the LORD commands us to prove all things by Scripture and reject the bad (I Thes 5:21).
21. Because . . . the LORD expects us to be noble and search Scripture to know true worship (Ac 17:11).
22. Because . . . the LORD gave Scripture to perfect us, which does not mention Xmas (II Tim 3:16-17).
23. Because . . . the LORD curses any gospel different than Paul's, and he didn't preach xmas (Ga 1:8-9).
24. Because . . . the LORD condemns fellowship with men having only a form of godliness (II Tim 3:5).
25. Because . . . the LORD condemns loving pleasure more than God as perilous times (II Timothy 3:4).
26. Because . . . the LORD condemns anything different from His Word as dark ignorance (Isaiah 8:20).
27. Because . . . the LORD abominates anything popular with the world and esteemed by it (Luke 16:15).
28. Because . . . the LORD condemns friendship with the world as becoming His enemy (James 4:4).
29. Because . . . the LORD condemns traditions in His worship as evil and vain hypocrisy (Mark 7:5-13).
30. Because . . . the LORD hates the polluting of His glorious name with pagan idolatry (Ezekiel 20:39).
31. Because . . . the LORD condemns the superstitious idolatry and blasphemy of the Mass (I Cor 11:26).
32. Because . . . the LORD condemns bringing any item of false religion into our houses (Deut 7:25-26).
33. Because . . . the LORD commands us not to set up any image, which He hates (De 16:22; Ex 20:4-6).
34. Because . . . the LORD hates religion that goes under green trees (I Kings 14:23; Isaiah 57:5; Jer 3:6).
35. Because . . . the LORD condemns adopting any practices of the pagans around us (Leviticus 18:1-4).
36. Because . . . the LORD condemns sun worship (Deu 4:19; 17:3; II Kgs 23:5; Job 31:26-28; Eze 8:16).
37. Because . . . the LORD endorses only apostolic traditions, and they never celebrated it (II Thes 2:15).
38. Because . . . the LORD is honored by gifts to Him rather than a selfish exchange of gifts (Matt 2:11).
39. Because . . . the LORD teaches us to remember His death rather than His birth (Phil 3:10; I Cor 15:3).
40. Because . . . the LORD gave baptism and His supper to remember His death (Rom 6:3-5; I Co 11:26).
41. Because . . . the LORD resents the hatred of pagans who exchange gifts against His men (Rev 11:10).
42. Because . . . the LORD condemns "the spirit of Christmas” as another spirit He hates (II Cor 11:1-4).
43. Because . . . the LORD condemns a mother and child wearing halos as another jesus (II Cor 11:1-4).
44. Because . . . the LORD condemns a tradition glorifying sun worship as another gospel (II Co 11:1-4).
45. Because . . . the LORD loves us to give up dear things as proof of our love to Him (Matt 10:37-39).
46. Because . . . the LORD did not come to bring peace on earth but rather a dividing sword (Mat 10:34).
47. Because . . . the LORD blessed giving over receiving, but Xmas is selfish exchanging (Acts 20:35).
48. Because . . . the LORD calls Jewish holy days matters of liberty, but not pagan holidays (Col 2:16).
49. Because . . . the LORD calls Jewish holy days matters of liberty, but not pagan holidays (Rom 14:6).
50. Because . . . the LORD considers the birth of His Son worthy of honor rather than folly (Heb 1:6).
51. Because . . . only two gospels record Christ's birth, while all four gospels record His death and burial.
52. Because . . . celebrating Christmas sincerely is identical to Jeroboam's two calves (I Kings 12:26-33).
53. Because . . . Aaron led Israel to worship the LORD with a golden calf to their judgment (Ex 32:1-5).
54. Because . . . it breaks the first commandment by having other gods – the sun god Mithra (Ex 20:3).
55. Because . . . it breaks the second commandment by having images – a Christmas tree (Ex 20:4-6).
56. Because . . . it breaks the third commandment by taking His name in vain – "Christmas” (Ex 20:7).
57. Because . . . it breaks the fifth commandment by promoting children's greed over parents (Ex 20:12).
58. Because . . . it breaks the tenth commandment by promoting covetousness to children (Ex 20:17).
59. Because . . . many Baptist martyrs gave their lives to oppose Catholic superstitions and traditions.
60. Because . . . it was a crime to observe Christmas in America, when our country truly feared God.
61. Because . . . it was a crime to observe Christmas in England, when that country truly feared God.
62. Because . . . all the God-hating, Christ-denying, and sin-loving pagans get excited about this day.
63. Because . . . Santa Claus is a pagan mockery of God the Father with white hair, grandfatherly image, eternal, lives in the North, unlimited resources, omniscient of children's behavior, omnipresent for a night, hears confessions, comes as a thief, blesses children, and distributes judgment for works.
64. Because . . . the name Christmas came from "Mass of Christ,” and non-catholic Christians do not have Catholic mass.
65. Because . . . every sincere birthday party honors the one born that day rather than all the mere guests.
66. Because . . . a gift exchange dictated by a calendar is not a message of love but a ritual of obligation.
67. Because . . . a gift exchange at the winter solstice was invented by pagans to celebrate the sun god.
68. Because . . . Christianity is giving gifts unexpected without obligation to reciprocate (Luke 14:12-14).
69. Because . . . secular encyclopedias will gladly tell you that Christmas came from pagan sun worship.
70. Because . . . the first state in our Bible-oriented country to make it a holiday was Alabama in 1836.
71. Because . . . a little drummer boy did not travel to the manger to play his drum for the infant Jesus.
72. Because . . . for the two centuries following the Pilgrims, Christians in America called it "popish.”
73. Because . . . English parliament under Oliver Cromwell outlawed it in 1644 and punished violaters.
74. Because . . . loving Jesus Christ is keeping His commandments, not decorating a tree (John 14:15).
75. Because . . . you cannot do unto the LORD what the LORD has condemned (Deut 12:1-4; 12:29-32).
76. Because . . . Christmas is not a matter of liberty left up to our consciences and/or heart preferences.
77. Because . . . true followers of God will not follow a multitude or majority to false worship (Ex 23:2).
78. Because . . . Xmas is most adored by women  (II Tim 3:6; I Pet 3:7).
79. Because . . . a time of unbridled greed, covetousness, and materialism cannot honor Jesus Christ.
80. Because . . . this unique holy day in the Roman Catholic calendar is exalted by three profane masses.
81. Because . . . the world loves a jesus helpless in a manger, but God's Christ is the LORD and Judge.
82. Because . . . on Christmas Eve the Pope of Rome conducts a special mass seen by much of the earth.
83. Because . . . godly parents don't lie to their children about a Roman Catholic myth named Nicholas.
84. Because . . . the Bible is totally silent about using this day or any such celebration to honor Christ.
85. Because . . . the gospel according to Christmas tradition, cards, and plays corrupts the Bible facts.
86. Because . . . the Pilgrims in 1620, seeking to worship God in truth, formally banned the holiday.
87. Because . . . the Puritans in 1659, seeking to worship God in truth, set a 5 shillings fine for keeping it.
88. Because . . . the modern Christmas tree was not introduced to this country by Germans until 1821.
89. Because . . . Jesus was not born in December, for one-half year back from Passover is rather October.
90. Because . . . Jesus was not born in December, for shepherds did not stay in the fields during winter.
91. Because . . . Jesus was not born in December, for taxation would not have been in the dead of winter.
92. Because . . . Jesus was not born in December, for wise taxation would have been shortly after harvest.
93. Because . . . Jesus was not born in December, for careful calculation of the priest's courses exclude it.
94. Because . . . the Roman feast at the winter solstice was to the sun god Mithras from the Persians.
95. Because . . . the Roman, extended feast prior to the winter solstice was to Saturn, god of agriculture.
96. Because . . . so many consider Christmas a "sacred cow” and beyond questioning or condemning.
97. Because . . . our past lives suffice us for lusts, excess of wine, revellings, and banquetings (I Pet 4:3).
98. Because . . . Emperor Aurelian picked December 25 for this holiday in 274 to worship the sun god.
99. Because . . . pagan sun worshippers had a great festival to the sun at the winter solstice before Jesus.
100. Because . . . it would be wrong to have a golden calf with candles to worship the Lord our Strength.
101. Because . . . the public schools in Boston were still open for classes on December 25 as late as 1870.
102. Because . . . the "birthday of the invincible sun” (dies natalis Solis invicti) was this date in Rome.
103. Because . . . December 25 was chosen by being the date of the winter solstice in the Julian calendar.
104. Because . . . Satan uses this pagan feast to steal glory from the Son of God for ignorant sun worship.
105. Because . . . Christmas American-style is oppression of parents by greedy children (Isaiah 3:1-5,12).
106. Because . . . Jesus promised that the majority are on the wrong road leading to death (Matt 7:13-14).
107. Because . . . Charles Spurgeon, the most popular Baptist minister, preached against it as late as 1871.
108. Because . . . all the unique customs of Christmas may be traced individually to pagan religious rites.
109. Because . . . Hindus, Jews, Mormons, Pagans, and other cults celebrate it while despising Jesus.
110. Because . . . it perverts Scripture's silence to justify anything not expressly forbidden i.e. Coke and
chips for the Lord's supper, male strippers for fundraisers, and ouija boards for difficult decisions.
111. Because . . . it creates the most foolish, hectic, stressful, guilt-ridden, and unproductive time of year.
112. Because . . . the LORD is a jealous God and will judge any playing with other gods (Ex 34:12-16).
113. Because . . . New Testament charity may accommodate weakness, but it cannot error (Romans 14:1).
114. Because . . . the moderation taught in the New Testament is temperance or self-discipline (Phil 4:5).
115. Because . . . it would be identical to offering incense to the brasen serpent of Moses (II Kings 18:4).
116. Because . . . the only day observed by the apostles was the Lord's day (Re 1:10; Ac 20:7; I Cor 16:2).
117. Because . . . we choose to emulate Jacob, who put away family idols to worship God (Gen 35:1-5).
118. Because . . . we choose to emulate Jehu, who defiled Baal worship to please God (II Kings 10:26-28).
119. Because . . . we choose to emulate Josiah, who defiled all pagan worship to please God (II Kings 23).
120. Because . . . we choose to emulate Asa, who defiled his mother's favorite idol (II Chron 15:12-16).
121. Because . . . we would also reject our wives from keeping pictures and birthdays of past boyfriends.



Before you flame me, check the facts. I for one, have come to the conclusion that Christmas is NOT about christ. If you don't agree with me, join the club. Lots of people don't agree with me - even my parents. Personally, I've come to a conclusion christmas isn't for me to celebrate. That is why I chose to celebrate Hanukah this year - because it is about celebrating the blessings and provision of God. I was just wondering how many would try to defend something that is historically inaccurate.


< Message edited by bibleteen04 -- 12/21/2006 10:06:27 PM >

(in reply to Saratina)
Post #: 7
RE: Put Christ back in Christmas? - 12/22/2006 5:33:03 PM   
Yo_yo Girl


Posts: 954
Joined: 4/7/2006
From: Bikini Bottom!
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bibleteen04

Ok. so my facts are slightly confused. Still, it seems to me that Christmas isn't really about Christ, it is about generosity, and kind heartedness mixed with pagan practices that the bible forbids (like christmas trees, for instance). Not to mention that the idea of gift giving during a holiday(thou shalt not covet),  originated in a pagan custom, the lies that are told to children about santa clause (which violates the commandment "thou shalt not bear false witness") Worshiping the baby christ child in the nativity set (thou shalt not have any other gods before me, thou shalt not make a graven image of anything in heaven or earth and bow down to worship it...) Setting up a christmas tree, and admiring it to christmas music like "oh christmas tree..." while turning off all the lights to admire the tree... 
Everything I have mentioned seems to violate the law that God gave us to understand what is pleasing to him and what isn't. Why don't we ever put God first in christmas, especcially when we say it is suppose to be about him in the first place? Something tells me that it really isn't about christ at all. It is about us - to make us feel better about ourselves, as we give to others - only to receive presents for ourselves on christmas morning. If christ was in christmas, we would wake up christmas morning thanking God for his provision rather than running to un-open christmas packages and stuffing ourselves with turkey and ham.  So, ask yourselves - what  is the truth about christmas?
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=the+truth+about+christmas


Okay, I don't agree with all you said. I agree with what Saratina said: if you want Christmas to be about worshipping a tree, it's your fault. If you want Christ in Christmas, then put Him in it.
My family celebrates Christmas with Christ in it. We read Luke 2:1-20 and we pray at home thanking Jesus for coming to the world for us. My parents told me since I was very young that Santa doesn't exist and I don't turn of the lights to worship my Christmas tree or my wooden nativity display! And what's wrong with a tree anyway? God made it!
How are you coveting when giving gifts, huh? Christmas encourages giving and explains that it's better to give than to receive. I don't make a list for my parents. They give me whatever and I accept it.
I don't run down to the tree first thing in the morning. Plus, I don't eat turkey or ham. I'm a vegitarian!
How is Christmas about us? We are celebrating the birth of Jesus Christ. He is the reason for the season.



< Message edited by Yo_yo Girl -- 12/22/2006 5:35:28 PM >


_____________________________

I can’t live without You
I don’t wanna be without You
No I can’t live without You
I am never without You

(in reply to bibleteen04)
Post #: 8
RE: Put Christ back in Christmas? - 12/22/2006 6:56:06 PM   
Avery


Posts: 8
Joined: 7/28/2006
Status: offline
First of all Christ was ALWAYS in Christmas even though he wasn't born untill later. God had a plan for Christ and knew that he would be the saviour of our world. You might be reading things that aren't true and be believing something that is leading you on to what is not ture at ALLLL! CHRIST was always in CHRISTmas. I can't beleive that someone would question the fact of wether or not Christ had to do with CHRISTmas. I'll be praying for you.

(in reply to bibleteen04)
Post #: 9
RE: Put Christ back in Christmas? - 12/22/2006 7:59:50 PM   
slayerfest98


Posts: 912
Joined: 7/30/2006
From: the vampire-plagued city of Sunnydale
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: *JeSuS*i*TrUsT*iN*yOu*

Your facts are incorrect. The early Church decided to celebrate Christ's birth on December 25th to "counteract" the already-existing pagan celebration of Saturnalia. The idea was that holding the celebration of our Lord's Nativity at the same time as Saturnalia might draw converts to the Church. Other than that, Saturnalia and Christmas have no correlation.
Christmas always was and still is, essentially, a celebration of Christ's coming into the world. It never has been about pagan gods or anything like that.
Thank you. We need more people who know what history and what they're talking about.

I also heard that another reason it was placed then so that Christians wouldn't get in trouble for having a celebration (because it was illegal to be Christian). I've heard this, but I'm not sure how accurate it is. Have you heard anything?

---edit---


quote:

ORIGINAL: bibleteen04

Ok. so my facts are slightly confused. Still, it seems to me that Christmas isn't really about Christ, it is about generosity, and kind heartedness mixed with pagan practices that the bible forbids (like christmas trees, for instance). Not to mention that the idea of gift giving during a holiday(thou shalt not covet),  originated in a pagan custom, the lies that are told to children about santa clause (which violates the commandment "thou shalt not bear false witness") Worshiping the baby christ child in the nativity set (thou shalt not have any other gods before me, thou shalt not make a graven image of anything in heaven or earth and bow down to worship it...) Setting up a christmas tree, and admiring it to christmas music like "oh christmas tree..." while turning off all the lights to admire the tree... 
Everything I have mentioned seems to violate the law that God gave us to understand what is pleasing to him and what isn't. Why don't we ever put God first in christmas, especcially when we say it is suppose to be about him in the first place? Something tells me that it really isn't about christ at all. It is about us - to make us feel better about ourselves, as we give to others - only to receive presents for ourselves on christmas morning. If christ was in christmas, we would wake up christmas morning thanking God for his provision rather than running to un-open christmas packages and stuffing ourselves with turkey and ham.  So, ask yourselves - what  is the truth about christmas?
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=the+truth+about+christmas


Obviously you are very confused.
1. Where does it say you may not directorate a tree in the Bible? Grant it, I haven't read the whole thing, but I'm Catholic (yeah, one of the strictest Christian religions) and my church has a Christmas Tree up.
2. To give or recieve a gift is not "to covet". When you covet, it's like wanting something so bad that you go out and steal it, or all you do is dwell on it and let it consume your life.
3. I'm sorry...I guess I was misinformed about putting up decorations because, I defiantly don't worship my nativity scene. Like, do you have a picture of your mom or dad up? Do you think the picture is actually them?
4. I do agree that Christmas doesn't have enough to do with Christ now a days, but that's not right (has nothing to do with it's roots but with our very PC society that is drifting farther from God every day)

This is interesting because there were some protestants (particularly the puritans) who thought Catholics were too loose and crazy because they celebrated Christmas and wore colored garments and had parties. Now, usually you only hear how strict the Catholic church is. haha.

< Message edited by slayerfest98 -- 12/22/2006 8:08:50 PM >


_____________________________

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96% of teens wont stand up for Christ if you are part of the 4% that will please put this as your signature

(in reply to *JeSuS*i*TrUsT*iN*yOu*)
Post #: 10
RE: Put Christ back in Christmas? - 12/23/2006 10:33:40 AM   
The Endless Wanderer

 

Posts: 41
Joined: 12/11/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Saratina

if Christmas is about worshipping a tree, it is because you are making it about worshipping a tree. Christmas is only going to be about Christ if you make it so. simple as that. 

quote:

mixed with pagan practices that the bible forbids (like christmas trees, for instance)


where did you come up with the idea that the Bible forbids Christmas trees?


The church used to frown upon christmas trees because the Pagans would decorate trees outside their homes to Honour the life that remained during the winter. Christians were forbidden to do this, so, to hide this practice from the church, they brought the tree inside. And there you have it ladies and gentlemen the "Age-old" tradition of the christmas tree.

quote:

Not to mention that the idea of gift giving during a holiday(thou shalt not covet),

quote:

who said anything about coveting? the Bible encourages giving. and Jesus was big on the whole "I'm not going to refrain from doing good just because it's a so-called 'special day'" thing.


Also a Pagan tradition. Homemade, modest gifts were given to children by the adults. It was symbolic of Mother Earth providing for her many children.

quote:

the lies that are told to children about santa clause (which violates the commandment "thou shalt not bear false witness")

quote:

again, this is only if you make it so. most of the people I know, myself included, were told the truth about santa claus from the beginning.


Yet again, a pagan tradition. Well, it's derived from one. During Yule (Vinter Solstice time) Offerings are given to the Goddess of the Sun, Sol, who rides her "sleigh" across the sky to bring the dawn and the dusk. We Hounour Sol because she is the promise that the prosperity of spring will return. She is the light in the darkness that is winter time. Hence milk and cookies to the one who gives the gift of "happiness" and "prosperity" through gifts.

quote:

Something tells me that it really isn't about christ at all. It is about us - to make us feel better about ourselves, as we give to others - only to receive presents for ourselves on christmas morning. If christ was in christmas, we would wake up christmas morning thanking God for his provision rather than running to un-open christmas packages and stuffing ourselves with turkey and ham.

quote:

you really are making a gross generalization. not to speak for everyone else, but my family and I wake up Christmas morning thanking God for His provision.
(we open presents on Christmas Eve anyway ^-^)
gift-giving is symbolic of the gift God gave to us. there is absolutely nothing wrong with it.

the truth about Christmas is that it is an opportunity to reflect on everything God's given to us. finis.



Christmas has changed, but not because of the church. It is because of the people. We have ruined it by commercializing it and making it very materialistic. It is up to the individual to make this time of year what it really can be.



< Message edited by The Endless Wanderer -- 12/23/2006 10:51:40 AM >


_____________________________

Surreal to the touch.

(in reply to Saratina)
Post #: 11
RE: Put Christ back in Christmas? - 12/23/2006 10:42:40 AM   
The Endless Wanderer

 

Posts: 41
Joined: 12/11/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: *JeSuS*i*TrUsT*iN*yOu*

Your facts are incorrect. The early Church decided to celebrate Christ's birth on December 25th to "counteract" the already-existing pagan celebration of Saturnalia. The idea was that holding the celebration of our Lord's Nativity at the same time as Saturnalia might draw converts to the Church. Other than that, Saturnalia and Christmas have no correlation.
Christmas always was and still is, essentially, a celebration of Christ's coming into the world. It never has been about pagan gods or anything like that.


Obviously you do not understand the amount of influence the Pagan Gods and Goddesses of the Norsemen and others have unwillingly influenced christmas traditions and celebrations. As I stated in my previous post, many traditions are derived from the Yule Festival beginning on the Winter Solstice and lasting for twelve days. (Hence "The Twelve Days of Christnas") Even christmas carols are not always about christ! Think about the true lyrics to "Deck the Halls". 'See the blazing Yule before us...' -speaking of the Yule log, lit on MotherNight (The Solstice) and kept burning all twelve days to "Carry the Sun into Spring".  "Deck the Hall with boughs of Holly" - Pagans would bring Holly and Evergreen into their homes as a promise to themselves that not all life is lost. It was a promise that Spring would return. Even the "tradition" of caroling is taken from the Pagans. Children would run about in the Villages during Yule and sing songs of hope and prosperity and warmth. The adults would give the children small tokens of appreciation, again, symbolic of the gifts given to the children of Mother Earth. The 25th is the date which, during Yule, Honour is given to Thor. Thor is the son of Odin; christ is the son of god. It's all very closely intertwined when you truly research it. Pagans have more to do with christmas than we'd like to admit. Yule has been forgotten by the masses but it is preserved through the few Honourable Faithful members of the Folk.

_____________________________

Surreal to the touch.

(in reply to *JeSuS*i*TrUsT*iN*yOu*)
Post #: 12
RE: Put Christ back in Christmas? - 12/23/2006 12:59:46 PM   
Saratina


Posts: 941
Joined: 7/28/2004
From: Texas
Status: offline
I apologize in advance for the lengthy post. My bet is that Jo, Neko, or sister_maynard will cover the alleged pagan origins, so I'm going to tackle this bit:

quote:

  
http://www.letgodbetrue.com/bible/holidays/christmas.htm
Reasons not to celebrate christmas:
1. Because . . . the LORD condemns using pagan religious practices in His worship (Deut 12:29-31).


great. good thing Christmas isn't pagan.

quote:

2. Because . . . the LORD condemns adding to or taking away from His commandments (Deut 12:32).


how is getting together, giving gifts to each other, and talking about Christ's birth "adding to or taking away from" His commandments?

quote:

3. Because . . . the LORD condemns doing anything under green trees in His worship (Deut 12:1-4).


until you begin offering burnt sacrifices for your sins as per the rest of the chapter, don't cite deuteronomy as 'proof'.

quote:

4. Because . . . the LORD condemns the heathen use of decorated trees at a solstice (Jeremiah 10:1-4).


good thing we're decorating trees for decoration and not to worship them.

quote:

5. Because . . . the LORD commands us to separate from and not touch pagan religion (II Cor 6:14-18).


except that Christmas isn't pagan?

quote:

6. Because . . . the LORD commands us to come out of Roman Catholicism and her sins (Rev 18:4).


It says to come out of "her." how on earth did you decide that "her" referred to Roman Catholicism?

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7. Because . . . the LORD condemns turning to the left or right from His commandments (Deu 5:32-33).


k. we won't do that, then. still don't see what this has to do with Christmas.

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8. Because . . . the LORD told the apostles to teach us to observe only His commandments (Matt 28:20).


actually, He didn't say that. His exact words were "...and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you." Jesus never commanded people to work at homeless shelters; are you condemning that, too? I'm sure there was some pagan society that fed its homeless.

quote:

9. Because . . . the LORD rejected David's worship for a small detail and killed Uzzah (II Sam 6:1-10).


and this is relevant because...?

quote:

10. Because . . . the LORD rejected and killed Nadab and Abihu for offering different fire (Lev 10:1-7).


and this is relevant because...?

quote:

11. Because . . . the LORD rejected Moses from seeing Canaan for a slight modification (Num 20:12).


Moses lacked faith that God would come through the way He promised. How can you even compare that to a celebration of Christ's birth?

quote:

12. Because . . . the LORD rejected Cain's worship simply for bringing an alternative sacrifice (Gen 4:7).


and this is relevant because...?

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13. Because . . . the LORD rejected Saul forever for noble intentions in a modification (I Sam 15:22-23).


Saul didn't have noble intensions. God said that "he has turned away from me and not carried out my instructions." disobedience != celebrations.

quote:

14. Because . . . the LORD rejected Uzziah and gave him facial leprosy for a new idea (II Chr 26:16-21).


you really think that God is ready to strike down anyone who has ideas? holy fight, what did He give us these lovely brains for? seems like not using your intellect would be disrespectful to God by wasting the talents He's entrusted you with.
anyway, Uzziah was struck down for trying to do the priests' job, not for having a new idea.

quote:

15. Because . . . the LORD rejected and killed Ananias and his wife for fudging a large gift (Acts 5:1-11).


and this is relevant because...?

quote:

16. Because . . . the LORD requires reverence and godly fear in worship to avoid His fire (He 12:28-29).


and this is relevant because...?

quote:

17. Because . . . the LORD seeks true worshippers to worship Him in truth, not superstition (Jn 4:23-24).


good thing Christmas doesn't involve superstition.

quote:

18. Because . . . the LORD commands us to earnestly contend for the faith once delivered (Jude 1:3).


and this is relevant because...?

quote:

19. Because . . . the LORD requires us to esteem all His precepts but to hate all other ideas (Ps 119:128).


"and because I consider your precepts right, I despise every wrong path." good thing Christmas isn't a wrong path.

quote:

20. Because . . . the LORD commands us to prove all things by Scripture and reject the bad (I Thes 5:21).


good thing Christmas is Christ-centered, as is Scripture.

quote:

21. Because . . . the LORD expects us to be noble and search Scripture to know true worship (Ac 17:11).


and this is relevant because...?

quote:

22. Because . . . the LORD gave Scripture to perfect us, which does not mention Xmas (II Tim 3:16-17).


Scripture doesn't mention giving aid to hurricane victims. It doesn't mention Vacation Bible School. It doesn't mention Rebecca St. James. Perhaps you should petition those things?

quote:

23. Because . . . the LORD curses any gospel different than Paul's, and he didn't preach xmas (Ga 1:8-9).


see above.

quote:

24. Because . . . the LORD condemns fellowship with men having only a form of godliness (II Tim 3:5).


and this is relevant because...?

quote:

25. Because . . . the LORD condemns loving pleasure more than God as perilous times (II Timothy 3:4).


people can put pleasure ahead of God while attending church, but you aren't arguing for the abolishment of the church.

quote:

26. Because . . . the LORD condemns anything different from His Word as dark ignorance (Isaiah 8:20).


good thing Christmas isn't contrary to the Word of God.

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28. Because . . . the LORD condemns friendship with the world as becoming His enemy (James 4:4).


and this is relevant because...?

quote:

29. Because . . . the LORD condemns traditions in His worship as evil and vain hypocrisy (Mark 7:5-13).


He was referring to the legalistic hypocrisy of the Pharisees, not all tradition.

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30. Because . . . the LORD hates the polluting of His glorious name with pagan idolatry (Ezekiel 20:39).


good thing Christmas doesn't pollute His glorious name with pagan idolatry!

quote:

31. Because . . . the LORD condemns the superstitious idolatry and blasphemy of the Mass (I Cor 11:26).


and this is relevant because...?

quote:

32. Because . . . the LORD condemns bringing any item of false religion into our houses (Deut 7:25-26).


good thing Christmas is about Christianity and not a false religion.

quote:

33. Because . . . the LORD commands us not to set up any image, which He hates (De 16:22; Ex 20:4-6).


good thing we're not worshipping idols.

quote:

34. Because . . . the LORD hates religion that goes under green trees (I Kings 14:23; Isaiah 57:5; Jer 3:6).


it says nothing of the sort. it says that these dudes set up poles for their goddess under trees. it says nothing about God hating trees being used as symbols in religious ceremonies, just that He doesn't like idolatry.

quote:

36. Because . . . the LORD condemns sun worship (Deu 4:19; 17:3; II Kgs 23:5; Job 31:26-28; Eze 8:16).


good thing Christmas isn't about sun worship.

quote:

37. Because . . . the LORD endorses only apostolic traditions, and they never celebrated it (II Thes 2:15).


how do you get "the Lord only endorses apostolic traditions" from "hold firm to the teachings we passed on to you"?

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38. Because . . . the LORD is honored by gifts to Him rather than a selfish exchange of gifts (Matt 2:11).


what exactly is selfish about giving to other people? didn't Jesus say that whatever we do unto others, we do for Him?

quote:

39. Because . . . the LORD teaches us to remember His death rather than His birth (Phil 3:10; I Cor 15:3).


those verses talk about Christ's death. they say nothing about not celebrating His birth.

quote:

40. Because . . . the LORD gave baptism and His supper to remember His death (Rom 6:3-5; I Co 11:26).


see above.

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41. Because . . . the LORD resents the hatred of pagans who exchange gifts against His men (Rev 11:10).


good thing we're not hate-filled pagans.

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42. Because . . . the LORD condemns "the spirit of Christmas” as another spirit He hates (II Cor 11:1-4).


it says nothing of the sort. did you even look up these verses?

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43. Because . . . the LORD condemns a mother and child wearing halos as another jesus (II Cor 11:1-4).


good thing Christmas isn't about mothers and children wearing halos.

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44. Because . . . the LORD condemns a tradition glorifying sun worship as another gospel (II Co 11:1-4).


good thing Christmas isn't about sun worship.

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45. Because . . . the LORD loves us to give up dear things as proof of our love to Him (Matt 10:37-39).


yes, but that doesn't mean that thing has to be Christmas.

quote:

46. Because . . . the LORD did not come to bring peace on earth but rather a dividing sword (Mat 10:34).


and this is relevant because...?

quote:

47. Because . . . the LORD blessed giving over receiving, but Xmas is selfish exchanging (Acts 20:35).


good thing many Christmas traditions involve giving.

quote:

48. Because . . . the LORD calls Jewish holy days matters of liberty, but not pagan holidays (Col 2:16).


good thing Christmas isn't a pagan holiday.

quote:

49. Because . . . the LORD calls Jewish holy days matters of liberty, but not pagan holidays (Rom 14:6).


see above.

quote:

50. Because . . . the LORD considers the birth of His Son worthy of honor rather than folly (Heb 1:6).


and this is relevant because...?

quote:

51. Because . . . only two gospels record Christ's birth, while all four gospels record His death and burial.


oh no, it was only mentioned in two books. I guess that makes it not worth celebrating.

quote:

52. Because . . . celebrating Christmas sincerely is identical to Jeroboam's two calves (I Kings 12:26-33).


um, no. it's not.

quote:

53. Because . . . Aaron led Israel to worship the LORD with a golden calf to their judgment (Ex 32:1-5).


and this is relevant because...?

quote:

54. Because . . . it breaks the first commandment by having other gods – the sun god Mithra (Ex 20:3).


good thing Christmas doesn't involve idol worship.

quote:

55. Because . . . it breaks the second commandment by having images – a Christmas tree (Ex 20:4-6).


good thing we're not worshipping the Christmas tree.

quote:

56. Because . . . it breaks the third commandment by taking His name in vain – "Christmas” (Ex 20:7).


"Christmas" is no more taking Christ's name in vain than calling ourselves "Christian."

quote:

57. Because . . . it breaks the fifth commandment by promoting children's greed over parents (Ex 20:12).


hello? Christmas promotes giving?

quote:

58. Because . . . it breaks the tenth commandment by promoting covetousness to children (Ex 20:17).


I wish you could meet all the families I know whose children have been saving money all year to be able to afford Christmas presents for their parents.

quote:

59. Because . . . many Baptist martyrs gave their lives to oppose Catholic superstitions and traditions.


and this is relevant because...?

quote:

60. Because . . . it was a crime to observe Christmas in America, when our country truly feared God.


reference, please? and see below.

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61. Because . . . it was a crime to observe Christmas in England, when that country truly feared God.


reference, please? and why does it make it wrong just because it was illegal then? they also made it a crime to read the Bible in English.

quote:

62. Because . . . all the God-hating, Christ-denying, and sin-loving pagans get excited about this day.


they get excited about chocolate too. move along.

quote:

63. Because . . . Santa Claus is a pagan mockery of God the Father with white hair, grandfatherly image, eternal, lives in the North, unlimited resources, omniscient of children's behavior, omnipresent for a night, hears confessions, comes as a thief, blesses children, and distributes judgment for works.


so protest Santa Claus, not Christmas.

quote:

64. Because . . . the name Christmas came from "Mass of Christ,” and non-catholic Christians do not have Catholic mass.


good thing Catholics don't have a monopoly on Christmas.

quote:

65. Because . . . every sincere birthday party honors the one born that day rather than all the mere guests.


good thing that Christmas is about honoring Christ.

quote:

66. Because . . . a gift exchange dictated by a calendar is not a message of love but a ritual of obligation.


this is almost offensive.

quote:

67. Because . . . a gift exchange at the winter solstice was invented by pagans to celebrate the sun god.


good thing we're not worshipping the sun god.

quote:

68. Because . . . Christianity is giving gifts unexpected without obligation to reciprocate (Luke 14:12-14).


I don't expect anyone to return the favor when I give them gifts.

quote:

69. Because . . . secular encyclopedias will gladly tell you that Christmas came from pagan sun worship.


I'll leave this to Neko and Jo.

quote:

70. Because . . . the first state in our Bible-oriented country to make it a holiday was Alabama in 1836.


and this is relevant because...?

quote:

71. Because . . . a little drummer boy did not travel to the manger to play his drum for the infant Jesus.


and this is relevant because...?

quote:

72. Because . . . for the two centuries following the Pilgrims, Christians in America called it "popish.”


and this is relevant because...?

quote:

73. Because . . . English parliament under Oliver Cromwell outlawed it in 1644 and punished violaters.


and this is relevant because...?

quote:

74. Because . . . loving Jesus Christ is keeping His commandments, not decorating a tree (John 14:15).


good thing we're keeping His commandments by showing His love to others in the spirit of giving.

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75. Because . . . you cannot do unto the LORD what the LORD has condemned (Deut 12:1-4; 12:29-32).


good thing the Lord hasn't condemned Christmas.

quote:

76. Because . . . Christmas is not a matter of liberty left up to our consciences and/or heart preferences.


o rly. proof please?

quote:

77. Because . . . true followers of God will not follow a multitude or majority to false worship (Ex 23:2).


good thing Christmas isn't about false worship.

quote:

78. Because . . . Xmas is most adored by women  (II Tim 3:6; I Pet 3:7).


Jesus is adored by most women too. move along.

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79. Because . . . a time of unbridled greed, covetousness, and materialism cannot honor Jesus Christ.


it is only a time of greed and materialism if you make it that way.

quote:

80. Because . . . this unique holy day in the Roman Catholic calendar is exalted by three profane masses.


good thing Catholics don't have a monopoly on Christmas.

quote:

81. Because . . . the world loves a jesus helpless in a manger, but God's Christ is the LORD and Judge.


you seem to place a lot of emphasis on the judge side, the God waiting to lop off our heads, and pay very little attention to the fact that He did come as a helpless baby.

quote:

82. Because . . . on Christmas Eve the Pope of Rome conducts a special mass seen by much of the earth.


and this is relevant because...?

quote:

83. Because . . . godly parents don't lie to their children about a Roman Catholic myth named Nicholas.


good thing Christmas isn't about St. Nicholas (who, by the way, was not a myth).

quote:

84. Because . . . the Bible is totally silent about using this day or any such celebration to honor Christ.


the Bible is totally silent about using Vacation Bible School or any sort of camp for kids to honor Christ.

quote:

85. Because . . . the gospel according to Christmas tradition, cards, and plays corrupts the Bible facts.


in what way?

quote:

86. Because . . . the Pilgrims in 1620, seeking to worship God in truth, formally banned the holiday.


and this is relevant because...?

quote:

87. Because . . . the Puritans in 1659, seeking to worship God in truth, set a 5 shillings fine for keeping it.


and this is relevant because...?

quote:

88. Because . . . the modern Christmas tree was not introduced to this country by Germans until 1821.


and this is relevant because...?

quote:

89. Because . . . Jesus was not born in December, for one-half year back from Passover is rather October.
quote:

90. Because . . . Jesus was not born in December, for shepherds did not stay in the fields during winter.
quote:

91. Because . . . Jesus was not born in December, for taxation would not have been in the dead of winter.
quote:

92. Because . . . Jesus was not born in December, for wise taxation would have been shortly after harvest.
quote:

93. Because . . . Jesus was not born in December, for careful calculation of the priest's courses exclude it.


does it matter when we celebrate His birth?

quote:

94. Because . . . the Roman feast at the winter solstice was to the sun god Mithras from the Persians.


and this is relevant because...?

quote:

95. Because . . . the Roman, extended feast prior to the winter solstice was to Saturn, god of agriculture.


and this is relevant because...?

quote:

96. Because . . . so many consider Christmas a "sacred cow” and beyond questioning or condemning.


great, so they should carefully consider it and think it over. that doesn't mean it's wrong.

quote:

97. Because . . . our past lives suffice us for lusts, excess of wine, revellings, and banquetings (I Pet 4:3).


and this is relevant because...?

quote:

98. Because . . . Emperor Aurelian picked December 25 for this holiday in 274 to worship the sun god.


good thing we're not worshipping the sun god.

quote:

99. Because . . . pagan sun worshippers had a great festival to the sun at the winter solstice before Jesus.


GOOD THING WE'RE NOT WORSHIPPING THE SUN GOD.

quote:

100. Because . . . it would be wrong to have a golden calf with candles to worship the Lord our Strength.


great, so let's not make a golden calf.

quote:

101. Because . . . the public schools in Boston were still open for classes on December 25 as late as 1870.


and anything Boston does must be sacred.

quote:

102. Because . . . the "birthday of the invincible sun” (dies natalis Solis invicti) was this date in Rome.


GOOD THING WE'RE NOT WORSHIPPING THE SUN GOD.

quote:

104. Because . . . Satan uses this pagan feast to steal glory from the Son of God for ignorant sun worship.


GOOD THING WE'RE NOT WORSHIPPING THE SUN GOD.

quote:

105. Because . . . Christmas American-style is oppression of parents by greedy children (Isaiah 3:1-5,12).


I think I already touched on this.

quote:

106. Because . . . Jesus promised that the majority are on the wrong road leading to death (Matt 7:13-14).


you realize that the majority of America professes to be Christian, right?

quote:

107. Because . . . Charles Spurgeon, the most popular Baptist minister, preached against it as late as 1871.


so?

quote:

108. Because . . . all the unique customs of Christmas may be traced individually to pagan religious rites.


-sigh-

quote:

109. Because . . . Hindus, Jews, Mormons, Pagans, and other cults celebrate it while despising Jesus.


good thing we're not hindus, jews, mormons or pagans.

quote:

110. Because . . . it perverts Scripture's silence to justify anything not expressly forbidden i.e. Coke and chips for the Lord's supper, male strippers for fundraisers, and ouija boards for difficult decisions.


if coke and chips can make you remember and think about Christ's sacrifice, go for it. male strippers may not be expressly forbidden, but lust and sexual perversion is. ouijia boards are not expressly forbidden, but tampering with spirits is. people can use the common sense God gave them.

quote:

111. Because . . . it creates the most foolish, hectic, stressful, guilt-ridden, and unproductive time of year.


Sundays are always hectic and stressful for me because of church. I should stop going.

quote:

112. Because . . . the LORD is a jealous God and will judge any playing with other gods (Ex 34:12-16).


good thing we're not playing with other gods.

quote:

113. Because . . . New Testament charity may accommodate weakness, but it cannot error (Romans 14:1).


and this is relevant because...?

quote:

114. Because . . . the moderation taught in the New Testament is temperance or self-discipline (Phil 4:5).


and this is relevant because...?

quote:

115. Because . . . it would be identical to offering incense to the brasen serpent of Moses (II Kings 18:4).


gathering together to reflect on Christ's birth is identical to offering incense to a snake, yeah.

quote:

116. Because . . . the only day observed by the apostles was the Lord's day (Re 1:10; Ac 20:7; I Cor 16:2).


and this is relevant because...?

quote:

117. Because . . . we choose to emulate Jacob, who put away family idols to worship God (Gen 35:1-5).

quote:

118. Because . . . we choose to emulate Jehu, who defiled Baal worship to please God (II Kings 10:26-28).
quote:

119. Because . . . we choose to emulate Josiah, who defiled all pagan worship to please God (II Kings 23).
quote:

120. Because . . . we choose to emulate Asa, who defiled his mother's favorite idol (II Chron 15:12-16).


good thing Christmas is not about idols.

quote:

121. Because . . . we would also reject our wives from keeping pictures and birthdays of past boyfriends.


...um...and this is relevant...because...?

quote:

Before you flame me, check the facts.


I did. I just spent two hours looking up every one of the references you posted, and the majority have been taken out of context or have absolutely nothing to do with Christmas. did you check the verses themselves, or just the list?

quote:

I for one, have come to the conclusion that Christmas is NOT about christ. If you don't agree with me, join the club. Lots of people don't agree with me - even my parents.


I'm sorry. it's really difficult when your parents don't agree with something you believe strongly in. *hugs*

quote:

Personally, I've come to a conclusion christmas isn't for me to celebrate. That is why I chose to celebrate Hanukah this year - because it is about celebrating the blessings and provision of God.


if you think God is leading you to stop celebrating Christmas, then by all means, do so. but I advise you not to condemn it completely, and to realize that it can be about the blessings and provision of God as well.

< Message edited by Saratina -- 12/23/2006 1:14:45 PM >


_____________________________

Melanie Godsey is my fellow poet and wife.


help cure leukemia and lymphoma:
http://www.active.com/donate/tntntx/gmez

(in reply to slayerfest98)
Post #: 13
RE: Put Christ back in Christmas? - 12/23/2006 2:08:43 PM   
*JeSuS*i*TrUsT*iN*yOu*


Posts: 1915
Joined: 2/20/2006
From: Ohio
Status: offline
Okay, now I feel like I'm copying off of Ginni, but I've been working on this post almost all morning...she just beat me to actually posting her reply, which was very well done, BTW. So sorry if I sound like I'm parroting anything that she or anyone else said...truly, I'm not...I'm just a slow poster. :-)
Disclaimer:  I am not angry or offended by you, bibleteen…as I've said before, I feel that the wrongs between us have been rectified. All annoyances that I may display in my arguments are directed at the author of the list, who I felt did a very poor job of defending his beliefs, not you. And slayerfest…no, I haven't heard of that, but it would certainly be an interesting topic to learn more about.

 
//edit, afterthought: and yes, I am discarding my usual purple for the rest of this post because I am waaaay to lazy to go color-code 100 something arguments.


quote:

1. Because . . . the LORD condemns using pagan religious practices in His worship (Deut 12:29-31).

I do not worship the Lord using pagan religious practices. Yes, I have certain family traditions that I hold to, but in no way do I practice any custom that is contrary to the Lord or His ways.
quote:

2. Because . . . the LORD condemns adding to or taking away from His commandments (Deut 12:32).

And Christmas is a celebration, right? Not a commandment. Jesus never commanded us not to celebrate his birthday.
quote:

3. Because . . . the LORD condemns doing anything under green trees in His worship (Deut 12:1-4).

So, if I sit underneath a beautiful evergreen tree in my backyard, read my Bible, and pray, I am an abomination to the Lord? This passage is referring to pagan god worship where they had altars, pillars, and basically places of worship for false gods amongst the trees of the forest, which many of them considered to be sacred. Nothing to do with Christmas. If God felt that, because of their pigmentation and nature, trees were evil, He wouldn't have made them.
quote:

4. Because . . . the LORD condemns the heathen use of decorated trees at a solstice (Jeremiah 10:1-4)

Actually, here the Lord is condemning the idols that the pagans made from wood from the forest and decorated with gold and other fineries. The pagans would then literally worship their homemade idols. I don't know any Christian who bows before a Christmas tree as god. For more information on the symbolism of the Christmas tree: http://www.mysticlightpress.com/index.php?page_id=123
quote:

5. Because . . . the LORD commands us to separate from and not touch pagan religion (II Cor 6:14-18).

I am a Christian, and I celebrate the Christian feast of Christmas.
quote:

6. Because . . . the LORD commands us to come out of Roman Catholicism and her sins (Rev 18:4).

HA! <3 crappy personal interpretations of Scripture. Cheap shots at a religion that you (directed at the author of the list) know nothing accurate about are laughable, to say the least. Christmas is not just a Catholic celebration, anyways.
quote:

7. Because . . . the LORD condemns turning to the left or right from His commandments (Deu 5:32-33).

See #2.
quote:

8. Because . . . the LORD told the apostles to teach us to observe only His commandments (Matt 28:20).

See #2. <_<
quote:


9-16. Because . . . the LORD rejected David's worship for a small detail and killed Uzzah (II Sam 6:1-10).

Because . . . the LORD rejected and killed Nadab and Abihu for offering different fire (Lev 10:1-7).

Because . . . the LORD rejected Moses from seeing Canaan for a slight modification (Num 20:12).

Because . . . the LORD rejected Cain's worship simply for bringing an alternative sacrifice (Gen 4:7).

Because . . . the LORD rejected Saul forever for noble intentions in a modification (I Sam 15:22-23).

. Because . . . the LORD rejected Uzziah and gave him facial leprosy for a new idea (II Chr 26:16-21).

Because . . . the LORD rejected and killed Ananias and his wife for fudging a large gift (Acts 5:1-11).

Because . . . the LORD requires reverence and godly fear in worship to avoid His fire (He 12:28-29).
This is all very interesting, but, unfortunately, it has nothing to do with Christmas, seeing as how we do not worship false gods at Christmas, nor do we offer them sacrifices.
quote:

17. Because . . . the LORD seeks true worshippers to worship Him in truth, not superstition (Jn 4:23-24).

Superstition: a belief or notion, not based on reason or knowledge, in or of the ominous significance of a particular thing, circumstance, occurrence, or proceeding, or the like. How is Christmas superstitious, pray tell? Christmas is not a time of irrational fear; it is a time of unparalleled joy.
quote:

18. Because . . . the LORD commands us to earnestly contend for the faith once delivered (Jude 1:3).

I try most earnestly to contend for my faith. I wish people "Merry Christmas” instead of the generic "Happy Holidays”. I display a large, beautiful Nativity set in my home. I try to spread good cheer and Christ-like love throughout the year, and especially during the Christmas season. If we want for Christmas to be a more Christ-centered holiday, it's up to us to work towards making that change. If we sit at our computers whining about it and writing ridiculous lists about it all day, we do nothing to spur on this revolution.
quote:

19. Because . . . the LORD requires us to esteem all His precepts but to hate all other ideas (Ps 119:128).

So getting an education/going to school is bad, because it presents ideas that are not 150% Christian? I think not. Remember…the Lord God IS truth. We celebrate the coming of true truth into the world on Christmas.
quote:

20. Because . . . the LORD commands us to prove all things by Scripture and reject the bad (I Thes 5:21).

Sola Sciptura is not Biblically rooted. But that's not what this thread is about, so…see #22.
quote:

21. Because . . . the LORD expects us to be noble and search Scripture to know true worship (Ac 17:11).

Acts 17:10-11—"The brothers immediately sent Paul and Silas to Beroea during the night Upon arrival, they went to the synagogue of the Jews. These Jews were far more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with all willingness and examined the scriptures daily to determine whether these things were so.” When Paul and Silas told the Jews of how Jesus was the Messiah, and how He fulfilled all of the Old Testament prophecies, the Jews in Beroea were more open to the Gospel than other Jews Paul and Silas had encountered. They took in what they were saying, studied the Scriptures, and decided for themselves whether or not Jesus fulfilled the requirements of a Messiah. End of story. Has nothing to do with Christmas.
quote:

22. Because . . . the LORD gave Scripture to perfect us, which does not mention Xmas (II Tim 3:16-17).

Scripture also doesn't outright mention the Holy Trinity, the celebration of our Lord's Resurrection on Easter, or a whole host of other well-accepted and perfectly pious Christian beliefs.
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23. Because . . . the LORD curses any gospel different than Paul's, and he didn't preach xmas (Ga 1:8-9).

Hang on a second. Paul didn't write the 4 Gospels. He wrote epistles to Christian communities. Paul preached THE gospel but He didn't write them. In addition, Paul wasn't perfect. Furthermore, Paul belonged to one church. There are now thousands upon thousands of churches, all with different beliefs and practices. This is just one example of how things have changed since apostolic times. The author of this list is simply trying to twist Scripture to fit his own personal beliefs.
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24. Because . . . the LORD condemns fellowship with men having only a form of godliness (II Tim 3:5).

Jesus hung out with sinners all the time. He came to save sinners, not righteous people. Many of my aunts and uncles have fallen from their faith. Does that mean that I shouldn't go visit them? I still love them. For Christians to segregate themselves from the rest of the world defeats the purpose of Christianity: to bring others to Christ. If we are strong in our faith, we can avoid the advances of "godless” people.
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25. Because . . . the LORD condemns loving pleasure more than God as perilous times (II Timothy 3:4).

I love God more than pleasure. God is my greatest source of pleasure, because I love Him more than anyone or anything. Most faithful Christians feel the same way. Hooray.
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26. Because . . . the LORD condemns anything different from His Word as dark ignorance (Isaiah 8:20).

19 and 20.
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27. Because . . . the LORD abominates anything popular with the world and esteemed by it (Luke 16:15).

24 and a bunch of others.
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28. Because . . . the LORD condemns friendship with the world as becoming His enemy (James 4:4).

We must live not for this world, but we must be able to live in it. Christmas is pro Christ, not anti Christ.
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29. Because . . . the LORD condemns traditions in His worship as evil and vain hypocrisy (Mark 7:5-13).

*sigh* My head hurts. Find the references yourself.
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30. Because . . . the LORD hates the polluting of His glorious name with pagan idolatry (Ezekiel 20:39).

In order to remain as mild-mannered in my response as possible, I am not replying to this for the zillionth time in this post.
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31. Because . . . the LORD condemns the superstitious idolatry and blasphemy of the Mass (I Cor 11:26).

Nice way to try and take another jab at the Catholics. Unfortunately, this argument sucks, and it also has nothing do with Christmas, seeing as how the Catholic Mass is celebrated every day of the year except Good Friday, and Protestant Christians, who also celebrate Christmas, do not have Masses.
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32. Because . . . the LORD condemns bringing any item of false religion into our houses (Deut 7:25-26).

The Lord certainly condemns false religions. And that is why my family celebrates the Christian feast of Christmas, and not the pagan feast of Saturnalia.
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33. Because . . . the LORD commands us not to set up any image, which He hates (De 16:22; Ex 20:4-6).

Oh dear. Guess this means I need to take down all of the photos of my family, both living and dead, from around my house. I better also take down the various paintings hanging throughout my house, and eradicate all magazines with photo covers from my presence. Because God apparently hates all images. <_< In these Bible verses, the Lord condemns idolatrous images. I don't worship a Christmas tree, a crèche, or a stocking any more than I worship a picture of my grandmother.
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34. Because . . . the LORD hates religion that goes under green trees (I Kings 14:23; Isaiah 57:5; Jer 3:6).

You mean to say, Mr. Author, that the Lord hates pagan religions. But Christianity is not a pagan religion. See 3.
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35. Because . . . the LORD condemns adopting any practices of the pagans around us (Leviticus 18:1-4).

Do you celebrate your birthday? Perhaps the 4th of July? Do you eat cookies? These are all secular practices. That doesn't necessarily make them bad. Christmas is not a pagan practice…no more than eating chocolate chip cookies is.
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36. Because . . . the LORD condemns sun worship (Deu 4:19; 17:3; II Kgs 23:5; Job 31:26-28; Eze 8:16).

Aaaand we don't worship the sun on Christmas, do we? We worship our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
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37. Because . . . the LORD endorses only apostolic traditions, and they never celebrated it (II Thes 2:15).

22, I think? Just because the apostles didn't celebrate Christmas doesn't mean it's bad. Christmas embodies the virtues that Christ taught us. Christmas, when celebrated properly, is not against Christ.
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38. Because . . . the LORD is honored by gifts to Him rather than a selfish exchange of gifts (Matt 2:11).

And on Christmas we offer our Lord our hearts, our sins, and our love. Jesus tells us that what we do unto others, we do unto Him. We *can* express our love and gratitude for one another by exchanging gifts and kind words on Christmas.
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39. Because . . . the LORD teaches us to remember His death rather than His birth (Phil 3:10; I Cor 15:3).

Ahh…but wait. If we're only supposed to remember our Lord's death…let's forget all of His parables. Let's forget His teaching days, all of the Commandments that He laid down as a young man. Let's also forget the beautiful example He set as a mere child…teaching the elders in the Temple and perfectly obeying His parents. Because, obviously, they have little to do with His actual death. <_<
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40. Because . . . the LORD gave baptism and His supper to remember His death (Rom 6:3-5; I Co 11:26).

How does this have to do with why we shouldn't celebrate Christmas?
41. Because . . . the LORD resents the hatred of pagans who exchange gifts against His men (Rev 11:10).
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42-44. Because . . . the LORD condemns "the spirit of Christmas” as another spirit He hates (II Cor 11:1-4).

Because . . . the LORD condemns a mother and child wearing halos as another jesus (II Cor 11:1-4).

Because . . . the LORD condemns a tradition glorifying sun worship as another gospel (II Co 11:1-4).
Really? That's not what 2 Cor. 11:1-14 says in my Bible. It says to imitate Christ, to keep the faith as passed down from generation to generation, and to remember that Christ should be the head of all families. Nowhere is "sun worship” mentioned. This personal Scriptural Interpretation=bad and biased. I thought we weren't supposed to add any words to Scripture. The so-called halos that this man speaks of that are sometimes shown on Nativity scenes merely symbolizes the sheer holiness of our Lord, Mary, the girl who brought Him into the world in perfect obedience with God, and all of the others in the scene. As far as the "spirit of Christmas”…uh…yeah. We're not talking about spirit as in a ghost or deity when we speak of the Spirit of Christmas…we're talking about the feelings and emotions of gladness and joy that Christmas stirs within us. 
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45. Because . . . the LORD loves us to give up dear things as proof of our love to Him (Matt 10:37-39).

The Lord also wants us to give freely, and to love not only through our words, but also by our actions. We should not prioritize the presents in Christmas…I completely agree with this. Jesus is most important, by far. But that doesn't mean that the presents are necessarily a bad thing.
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46. Because . . . the LORD did not come to bring peace on earth but rather a dividing sword (Mat 10:34).

Whoooa….bad interpretation. This is Mat. 10:34 in my Bible: "Do not think that I have come to bring peace upon the earth. I have come to bring not peace but the sword.” What Jesus means here is that He came to completely and radically change the world. He didn't come to just lay back and let people chill in their sinful ways. He came to wake them up to the ways of the Lord. At the same time, Jesus is true peace and tranquility to those who follow Him. Jesus didn't come to start bloody wars or to blow people up, but rather, He came to change people's hearts with boldness, and yet, love. 
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47. Because . . . the LORD blessed giving over receiving, but Xmas is selfish exchanging (Acts 20:35).

Doesn't that mean that the giving is reciprocal? Isn't that the goal…for people to equally love and value one another? If we're both giving, and we happen to receive the fruits of one another's love, is that bad? Someone has to receive the other's giving.
51. Because . . . only two gospels record Christ's birth, while all four gospels record His death and burial.
So? Jesus was obviously born, right? I mean, He didn't just materialize out of nowhere. Besides…all of the Gospels contain slightly different parables/stories/accounts. Does this automatically falsify them? This argument is self-defeating.
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54. Because . . . it breaks the first commandment by having other gods – the sun god Mithra (Ex 20:3).

How many times do I need to reiterate the fact that Christians do not worship the sun god Mithra on Christmas, but rather, Jesus Christ? The pagans who worshipped Mithra are not even in existence anymore, so far as I know. <_<
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55. Because . . . it breaks the second commandment by having images – a Christmas tree (Ex 20:4-6).

See 33 and 117.
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56. Because . . . it breaks the third commandment by taking His name in vain – "Christmas” (Ex 20:7).

Ehhh…no. Crappy argument. Taking the Lord's name in vain is using His name profanely or very disrespectfully. (I.e. OMG!) "Christmas” references to a celebration of our Lord, but it is not a name for Him. (We don't address Jesus as "Christmas”, do we?)
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57-58. Because . . . it breaks the fifth commandment by promoting children's greed over parents (Ex 20:12). Because . . . it breaks the tenth commandment by promoting covetousness to children (Ex 20:17).
Amazingly, this stuff only happens if you teach your children to be covetous. Yeah, my little brothers and sister get excited on Christmas morning, but I certainly wouldn't call them covetous. My parents have done a very good job of instilling strong moral values in their children. It all depends on the family and how they promote the holiday. Santa, presents, etc. are not a necessary part of Christmas. They can be nice aspects of the holiday for young children, but any good Christian family will tell you that Christmas is not about the presents. As Lou Lou Who said on HOW THE GRINCH STOLE CHRISTMAS, "You can't hurt Christmas… because it isn't about the gifts or the contest or the fancy lights… I don't need anything more for Christmas than this right here: my family.”
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59. Because . . . many Baptist martyrs gave their lives to oppose Catholic superstitions and traditions.

And the point of this point is…? Calling Catholic traditions "superstitious” is extremely ignorant, to say the least, on the part of the author of this list. It's also interesting to note that before Baptist martyrs gave their lives to oppose Catholicism, countless Catholic martyrs gave their lives to defend the whole of Christianity.
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60. Because . . . it was a crime to observe Christmas in America, when our country truly feared God.

Mmhmm. See 86 and 87, I think they were?
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61. Because . . . it was a crime to observe Christmas in England, when that country truly feared God.

*yawn* I've always hated History class. Especially when the teacher repeats himself 15,000 times.
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62. Because . . . all the God-hating, Christ-denying, and sin-loving pagans get excited about this day.

Yeah…and why does this validate the argument as to why CHRISTIANS shouldn't celebrate Christmas? If pagans decide to wallow in their sinfulness and mock a God that they don't follow, then they will face eternal punishment as deemed appropriate by God. But this has nothing to do with the Christian aspect of Christmas.
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63. Because . . . Santa Claus is a pagan mockery of God the Father with white hair, grandfatherly image, eternal, lives in the North, unlimited resources, omniscient of children's behavior, omnipresent for a night, hears confessions, comes as a thief, blesses children, and distributes judgment for works.
Santa Claus comes from a mispronunciation of the Dutch "Sinterklaas”, a contracted form of Sint Nicolaas. (Saint Nicholas.)  Santa Claus is NOT a mockery or representation of God. Santa Claus is modeled after Saint Nicholas, a loving bishop who had a heart of gold. He gave most of his possessions away to the poor and brought many people to Christ through his tender ways. He brought much to joy to people's lives. Santa Claus is modeled after Him.
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64. Because . . . the name Christmas came from "Mass of Christ,” and non-catholic Christians do not have Catholic mass.
And what's the point? The earliest Christian Church is the Catholic Church. Even though we now have many other denominations (who do not have the Catholic Mass), I think it's fine to keep the name. There's nothing intrinsically wrong with it.
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65. Because . . . every sincere birthday party honors the one born that day rather than all the mere guests.

My family certainly honors Christ on his birthday. Jesus is far more important to my family, and most Christian families, than the presents on Christmas. We worship Him and praise God for bringing His only Son into the world to save us. We also honor the Hidden Jesus, who dwells within each of us, by expressing our love and appreciation for one another.
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66. Because . . . a gift exchange dictated by a calendar is not a message of love but a ritual of obligation.

*rolls eyes* How is this guy to say that when I spent several HOURS this past month looking for, marking, copying, organizing, and labeling 102 photos of my 6-year-old autistic brother and compiling them into a photo album for him I was not doing it out of love for him? I didn't particularly feel like rummaging through 1000s of photos to find pictures of Matthew, and I didn't feel like paying $30 to have them reprinted, but I did it because I knew that he would enjoy looking at the album because he can't remember his early childhood very well. That was a labor of love, not a ritual of obligation. The end.
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68. Because . . . Christianity is giving gifts unexpected without obligation to reciprocate (Luke 14:12-14).

*groans* 38, 47, and a bunch of others that I can't remember.
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69. Because . . . secular encyclopedias will gladly tell you that Christmas came from pagan sun worship.

Secular encyclopedias are also biased, just as the person who wrote this list is. CHRISTMAS IS A CELEBRATION OF CHRIST THAT TAKES PLACE AT THE SAME TIME AS A ONCE-EXISTENT FESTIVAL OF PAGAN SUN WORSHIP. Mmk?
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70. Because . . . the first state in our Bible-oriented country to make it a holiday was Alabama in 1836.

…that's nice?
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71. Because . . . a little drummer boy did not travel to the manger to play his drum for the infant Jesus.

It's a STORY that teaches the lesson of humility and love for our Lord. There's nothing wrong with fables as long as they are appropriate. If there were something wrong with them, reading all books and telling jokes and stories would be a sin. Also, poor shepherds did visit our Lord (very much like the poor drummer boy in the story.)
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72. Because . . . for the two centuries following the Pilgrims, Christians in America called it "popish.”

Uh huh. Also remember that the Pilgrims, etc. were ultra-conservative, had an agenda, and have since died out. Again, it doesn't relate to modern people.
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73. Because . . . English parliament under Oliver Cromwell outlawed it in 1644 and punished violaters.

*sigh* I'll say it again…modern people really don't care what Oliver Cromwell did in1644 under his own agenda. We need solid arguments as to why WE shouldn't celebrate Christmas.
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74. Because . . . loving Jesus Christ is keeping His commandments, not decorating a tree (John 14:15).

Huzzah for more Scripture-twisting-to-fit-personal-beliefs. John 14:15 says, "If you love me, you will keep my commandments.” Jesus' commandments were to love, to trust in Him, to follow Him, to tell everyone of Him, etc., etc. Nowhere did Jesus make a commandment that said, "DON'T CELEBRATE MY BIRTHDAY ON CHRISTMAS!11!” So, twisting this Scripture to say that decorating a tree is against Jesus' commandments is ridiculous. The two have
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absolutely no correlation whatsoever.

75. Because . . . you cannot do unto the LORD what the LORD has condemned (Deut 12:1-4; 12:29-32).
And where in the Bible has the Lord directly said, "Thou shalt not celebrate my birth on Christmas!”?
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76. Because . . . Christmas is not a matter of liberty left up to our consciences and/or heart preferences.

Really? Now, who is this dude who is writing this list to make that analysis, seeing as how he doesn't celebrate Christmas?
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77. Because . . . true followers of God will not follow a multitude or majority to false worship (Ex 23:2).

It all depends on your definition of "false worship”. I, for one, worship my Lord Jesus Christ on Christmas.
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78. Because . . . Xmas is most adored by women  (II Tim 3:6; I Pet 3:7).

Ummm…okay. A bit of an assumption here, but whatever. You know, my Dad has always said that Christmas (as in the presents on Christmas morning, etc.) is essentially a celebration for children. While it's fine for adults to exchange a few gifts on Christmas, it's not quite the same as the joy that a child experiences on Christmas. That is because the present part of Christmas is meant to instill hope, joy, and love for the birth of our Savior in young children. For adults (i.e. women) Christmas tends to be more of a joyful time to reunite with family, enjoy the company of loved ones, and worship the Lord that they have come to know. In this sense, I think grown men enjoy it just as much as grown women.  
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79. Because . . . a time of unbridled greed, covetousness, and materialism cannot honor Jesus Christ.

Christmas is only a time of unbridled greed, covetousness, and materialism if we make it such. I know it certainly isn't any of those things in my house.
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80. Because . . . this unique holy day in the Roman Catholic calendar is exalted by three profane masses.

Well, this is just badly informed bias against the Catholic Church that has nothing to do with why mainstream Christians shouldn't celebrate Christmas.
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81. Because . . . the world loves a jesus helpless in a manger, but God's Christ is the LORD and Judge.

That Lord and Judge came to Earth as a small, helpless baby to begin with. The Infant Jesus reminds us of the values of hope, humility, and poverty.
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82. Because . . . on Christmas Eve the Pope of Rome conducts a special mass seen by much of the earth.

Yay for more ignorant, cheap shots at the Catholic Church!!111!
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83. Because . . . godly parents don't lie to their children about a Roman Catholic myth named Nicholas.

Uh huh. Wow, this guy sure hates Catholics, huh? He's also grossly misinformed and ignorant (I'm Catholic; I should know.) But I don't want to turn this into a Catholic v. Protestant debate. All I'm saying is that he's making some pretty cheap shots here. Saint Nicholas, the bishop, was not a myth; he was a real person. Santa Claus as in the jolly man we sometimes see on Christmas, embodies the virtues of love, joy, and generosity. But then again, if you want to celebrate Christmas without Santa, that's cool. I know many families who don't include Santa in their Christmas celebrations.
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84. Because . . . the Bible is totally silent about using this day or any such celebration to honor Christ.

See #22. Seems like the list's author is having trouble coming up with more excuses.
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86. Because . . . the Pilgrims in 1620, seeking to worship God in truth, formally banned the holiday.

That's nice for them..
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87. Because . . . the Puritans in 1659, seeking to worship God in truth, set a 5 shillings fine for keeping it.

And the point of this point is….? I don't know any Puritans.
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88. Because . . . the modern Christmas tree was not introduced to this country by Germans until 1821.

Right. Many Christian sects and denominations have only popped up in the last 50 years or so. Your point is?
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89. Because . . . Jesus was not born in December, for one-half year back from Passover is rather October.

This list is starting to parrot itself. See #90-93.
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90-93. Because . . . Jesus was not born in December, for shepherds did not stay in the fields during winter. Because . . . Jesus was not born in December, for taxation would not have been in the dead of winter.

Because . . . Jesus was not born in December, for wise taxation would have been shortly after harvest.

Because . . . Jesus was not born in December, for careful calculation of the priest's courses exclude it.
We don't know for sure when Jesus was born. As you pointed out, most likely, he was born in either the fall or, even more probably, the spring. Because we don't know exactly when Jesus was born, we celebrate his birthday on December 25th for the reasons that I list below.
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94-95 Because . . . the Roman feast at the winter solstice was to the sun god Mithras from the Persians. Because . . . the Roman, extended feast prior to the winter solstice was to Saturn, god of agriculture.
So? As I said before…Christmas is celebrated in winter because early Christians wanted to have a Christian celebration in order to counteract these pagan celebrations.
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96. Because . . . so many consider Christmas a "sacred cow” and beyond questioning or condemning.
Wow. Just wow. 0_0
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97. Because . . . our past lives suffice us for lusts, excess of wine, revellings, and banquetings (I Pet 4:3).
And since when is Christmas all about lusts, excess of wine, revellings, and banquets? It's not. Christmas is a time of joy and celebration, yes, but Christmas isn't a time of "lust” or drunkenness. Huzzah for more inaccurate, hurried conclusions that have little pertinence to one's thesis.
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98. Because . . . Emperor Aurelian picked December 25 for this holiday in 274 to worship the sun god.
I am too tired to repeat my argument against this again. 
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99. Because . . . pagan sun worshippers had a great festival to the sun at the winter solstice before Jesus.
*HEADDESK* If this guy repeats himself one more time I am going to seriously cry. I'm not even going to post a reference here.
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100. Because . . . it would be wrong to have a golden calf with candles to worship the Lord our Strength.
And that is why Christians do not construct a golden calf with candles to worship the Lord of Strength on His adopted birthday.
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101. Because . . . the public schools in Boston were still open for classes on December 25 as late as 1870.
What's up with all of the American history lessons? Pointless.
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102-103. Because . . . the "birthday of the invincible sun” (dies natalis Solis invicti) was this date in Rome.

103. Because . . . December 25 was chosen by being the date of the winter solstice in the Julian calendar.
Ya know, if this guy didn't repeat himself 50,000 times, he would probably have more like 51 arguments as opposed to 121. <_<
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104. Because . . . Satan uses this pagan feast to steal glory from the Son of God for ignorant sun worship.

CHRISTIANS. DO. NOT. WORSHIP. THE. SUN. ON. CHRISTMAS. How many times do I need to say this? This is an awful argument. WE WORSHIP OUR LORD. Do you see a replica of the sun in Nativity scenes? Do you see giant stars in churches on Christmas? We worship the SON not the SUN.
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105. Because . . . Christmas American-style is oppression of parents by greedy children (Isaiah 3:1-5,12).

See 57 and 58. Furthermore, perhaps the greed that is sometimes displayed in modern American Christmas celebrations is a reflection on America, and not Christmas itself, which is celebrated all around the world. As an American, I think America has a great deal of waking up it needs to do. Maybe this is a good place to start. But that doesn't mean that Christmas, or gift giving on Christmas, is bad.
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106. Because . . . Jesus promised that the majority are on the wrong road leading to death (Matt 7:13-14).

I feel like a parrot. How does this directly relate to the Nativity of our Lord? And how, pray tell, can one objectively say that this is related to Christmas? You can't. If you believe Christmas is wrong, you can twist this so that you can interpret it as so. But this verse has nothing to do with Christmas. End of story.
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107. Because . . . Charles Spurgeon, the most popular Baptist minister, preached against it as late as 1871.

Well that's dandy for him. But those are his personal beliefs and have little relevance to the argument as to why the rest of the world shouldn't celebrate Christmas. In addition, this guy needs to lay off with the Baptist comments. Not all Christians are Baptists, and therefore, not all Christians care what a popular Baptist minister did nearly 136 years ago. Furthermore, the fact is that more perfectly pious Christians advocate and celebrate Christmas than not. Just because one is popular, like Charles Spurgeon, doesn't automatically mean that he is without blame or error.
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108. Because . . . all the unique customs of Christmas may be traced individually to pagan religious rites.

Really? If your agenda is to trace all elements of Christmas back to pagan or pagan-related rites, I'm sure you could do it. But the fact of the matter is, no, not all aspects of Christmas have "pagan” roots. Most have uniquely Christian essences or elements about them,
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109. Because . . . Hindus, Jews, Mormons, Pagans, and other cults celebrate it while despising Jesus.

That's their problem. Bibleteen, you said you celebrate Hannukah while you are a Christian. Does that make it necessarily wrong? Not really. While I definitely disagree with the practice of celebrating Christmas just for the presents, I don't think that's a valid reason to cancel it for the rest of us.
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110. Because . . . it perverts Scripture's silence to justify anything not expressly forbidden i.e. Coke and

chips for the Lord's supper, male strippers for fundraisers, and ouija boards for difficult decisions.
But, the difference is, that Coke and chips, male strippers, and ouija boards all have nothing do with religion. They are secular practices and things. Christmas is a Christian celebration rooted in Christian values. Big difference, therefore, this argument is weak.
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111. Because . . . it creates the most foolish, hectic, stressful, guilt-ridden, and unproductive time of year.

It certainly doesn't have to be. While the Christmas season can definitely be a tad stressful, for the most part, it is what you make it. My parents do NOT go insane with the presents…they set a very reasonable budget, stick to it, and pay for everything in cash. They plan everything out. No guilt, little stress.
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112. Because . . . the LORD is a jealous God and will judge any playing with other gods (Ex 34:12-16).

We don't worship false gods on Christmas. CHRISTMAS IS, BY ITS VERY NATURE, A CELEBRATION OF JESUS CHRIST'S BIRTH. You can twist it and you can argue all you want as to the origins of the holiday, but you CANNOT deny the fact that the intention and the purpose of Christmas is to honor Jesus Christ. You just can't.
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117. Because . . . we choose to emulate Jacob, who put away family idols to worship God (Gen 35:1-5).

There's a big difference between idolatry (bowing down to and worshipping objects), and using artistic objects to remind a person of certain virtues and past events. (as in using a crèche scene to recall the beauty of our Lord's birth and coming to Earth.)
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118-121. Because . . . we choose to emulate Jehu, who defiled Baal worship to please God (II Kings 10:26-28).

Because . . . we choose to emulate Josiah, who defiled all pagan worship to please God (II Kings 23).

Because . . . we choose to emulate Asa, who defiled his mother's favorite idol (II Chron 15:12-16).

Because . . . we would also reject our wives from keeping pictures and birthdays of past boyfriends.
Cool. That's why I'm against Wicca and other pagan religions. That's why I'm against going to palm readers, and the like. That's why I am strongly opposed to reading horoscopes, etc. But, fortunately for me, Christmas is not a pagan holiday, nor is it pagan worship, because it honors the one true God. And so, I celebrate Christmas…and I wish all of you a very blessed one.

As Ginni said, if you don't celebrate Christmas, more power to you. But that doesn't necessarily mean that it is evil or bad. I am sorry that your parents don't agree with you...that's really rough. And, although you don't celebrate Christmas, I wish you a most blessed end of the year. God bless.

< Message edited by *JeSuS*i*TrUsT*iN*yOu* -- 12/23/2006 2:15:17 PM >


_____________________________

For one pain endured with joy, we shall love the good God more forever. -St. Therese
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For every minute you are angry, you lose 60 seconds of happiness. -Ralph Waldo Emerso

(in reply to bibleteen04)
Post #: 14
RE: Put Christ back in Christmas? - 12/23/2006 2:13:14 PM   
*JeSuS*i*TrUsT*iN*yOu*


Posts: 1915
Joined: 2/20/2006
From: Ohio
Status: offline
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ORIGINAL: The Endless Wanderer

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ORIGINAL: *JeSuS*i*TrUsT*iN*yOu*

Your facts are incorrect. The early Church decided to celebrate Christ's birth on December 25th to "counteract" the already-existing pagan celebration of Saturnalia. The idea was that holding the celebration of our Lord's Nativity at the same time as Saturnalia might draw converts to the Church. Other than that, Saturnalia and Christmas have no correlation.
Christmas always was and still is, essentially, a celebration of Christ's coming into the world. It never has been about pagan gods or anything like that.


Obviously you do not understand the amount of influence the Pagan Gods and Goddesses of the Norsemen and others have unwillingly influenced christmas traditions and celebrations. As I stated in my previous post, many traditions are derived from the Yule Festival beginning on the Winter Solstice and lasting for twelve days. (Hence "The Twelve Days of Christnas") Even christmas carols are not always about christ! Think about the true lyrics to "Deck the Halls". 'See the blazing Yule before us...' -speaking of the Yule log, lit on MotherNight (The Solstice) and kept burning all twelve days to "Carry the Sun into Spring".  "Deck the Hall with boughs of Holly" - Pagans would bring Holly and Evergreen into their homes as a promise to themselves that not all life is lost. It was a promise that Spring would return. Even the "tradition" of caroling is taken from the Pagans. Children would run about in the Villages during Yule and sing songs of hope and prosperity and warmth. The adults would give the children small tokens of appreciation, again, symbolic of the gifts given to the children of Mother Earth. The 25th is the date which, during Yule, Honour is given to Thor. Thor is the son of Odin; christ is the son of god. It's all very closely intertwined when you truly research it. Pagans have more to do with christmas than we'd like to admit. Yule has been forgotten by the masses but it is preserved through the few Honourable Faithful members of the Folk.

Even if some of the customs of pagan celebrations (i.e. gift giving) influenced aspects of the Christian celebration of Christmas, which I know that they did, to an extent, one can still not deny the fact that Christmas is essentially about Christ. You (general terms) can argue all you want as to the roots of the traditions of the holiday, but in modern times, Christmas is based upon the birth of Jesus Christ. Christianity also modified many of the pagan practices slightly to make them more appropriate for a Christian celebration. Again, the whole idea was to try and bring in more converts, away from paganism to the Church.

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Post #: 15
RE: Put Christ back in Christmas? - 12/23/2006 8:10:18 PM   
Saratina


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quote:

ORIGINAL: *JeSuS*i*TrUsT*iN*yOu*

Okay, now I feel like I'm copying off of Ginni, but I've been working on this post almost all morning...she just beat me to actually posting her reply, which was very well done, BTW. So sorry if I sound like I'm parroting anything that she or anyone else said...truly, I'm not...I'm just a slow poster. :-)
Disclaimer:  I am not angry or offended by you, bibleteen…as I've said before, I feel that the wrongs between us have been rectified. All annoyances that I may display in my arguments are directed at the author of the list, who I felt did a very poor job of defending his beliefs, not you. And slayerfest…no, I haven't heard of that, but it would certainly be an interesting topic to learn more about.


wow. I'm very impressed.
I actually read that entire thing and really enjoyed it. I may have posted mine first, but that's probably because you went into a lot more detail (most of mine are just "irrelevant rarr"). and we may have replied in the same format, but we covered different things. we make a good team, yes?


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Post #: 16
RE: Put Christ back in Christmas? - 12/23/2006 9:01:43 PM   
XgReEnPoLkAdOtO


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quote:

"oh christmas tree..." while turning off all the lights to admire the tree...

That statement is actually quite amusing. I think it's funny that you think we worship trees. Nice Try, but we worship God not Christmas trees.

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(in reply to bibleteen04)
Post #: 17
RE: Put Christ back in Christmas? - 12/24/2006 4:01:33 PM   
*JeSuS*i*TrUsT*iN*yOu*


Posts: 1915
Joined: 2/20/2006
From: Ohio
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Saratina

quote:

ORIGINAL: *JeSuS*i*TrUsT*iN*yOu*

Okay, now I feel like I'm copying off of Ginni, but I've been working on this post almost all morning...she just beat me to actually posting her reply, which was very well done, BTW. So sorry if I sound like I'm parroting anything that she or anyone else said...truly, I'm not...I'm just a slow poster. :-)
Disclaimer:  I am not angry or offended by you, bibleteen…as I've said before, I feel that the wrongs between us have been rectified. All annoyances that I may display in my arguments are directed at the author of the list, who I felt did a very poor job of defending his beliefs, not you. And slayerfest…no, I haven't heard of that, but it would certainly be an interesting topic to learn more about.


wow. I'm very impressed.
I actually read that entire thing and really enjoyed it. I may have posted mine first, but that's probably because you went into a lot more detail (most of mine are just "irrelevant rarr"). and we may have replied in the same format, but we covered different things. we make a good team, yes?


*blushes* Eh, thanks....I tried. Try being the key word here. ^_^
And yes, we do seem to make quite a good team.

//stupid spelling mistake


< Message edited by *JeSuS*i*TrUsT*iN*yOu* -- 12/24/2006 4:06:23 PM >


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*************************************************
For every minute you are angry, you lose 60 seconds of happiness. -Ralph Waldo Emerso

(in reply to Saratina)
Post #: 18
RE: Put Christ back in Christmas? - 12/24/2006 5:27:20 PM   
madame_dolls_4_me


Posts: 3904
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quote:

ORIGINAL: bibleteen04
Scripturetwistingyaddayaddayadda

You, can be a scrooge all you want. I, on the other hand will greatly enjoy my christmas
Because dotdotdot I like celebrating my Saviors birthday, I like to show my family and friends how much I love them. I like to give gifts (since when was giving ever covetous?) Because I like Christmas, in all it's "pagan" evil.


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Post #: 19
RE: Put Christ back in Christmas? - 12/24/2006 8:42:28 PM   
PurpleDolphin


Posts: 1706
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From: Aeia
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So I read most of the posts here and boy were they long! anyway I'm not going to try and convince anyone that Christmas is a pagen holiday and shouldn't be celebrating because you're worshipping pagen gods by doing so....because you're just going to post some silly reply like It's celebrated as a christian holiday now, and it's roots doesn't matter. I  think the roots does matter but more than that I think that if you're a christian God should matter more than anything. So go ahead and read on. Hope you enjoy!
 
 
The Christmas Tree
the Christmas tree is pointless, iThe question of if it's pagen or not doesn't matter because we know it's not Godly and in no way glorifies Him or brings honor to Him. So goodbye christmas tree if you're a true christian. I don't think christians who decorate the Christmas tree are worshipping it, you have to know you're worshipping somethig in order to worship it.
Still Christians need to step back and look at what they're doing and ask themsleves why they're doing it. Using the Bible as a guide to direct them where they need to be.
Oh and will every christian here do me a favor? Will you please pray to God and ask Him if you should celebrate Christmas or not. See what He has to say about it.
 
Christians, someone should pray for you
What is wrong with so many christians? You don't really love your God? Why are you playing around with other Gods and religious practices? Stop It!
I think if you're really celebrating Christmas by honoring God than the things you do should honor Him. And you should be celebrating Jesus's birth every day of your life.
giving gifts to those who need it every day, even if the calender doesn't say December 25th.  I have no idea how decorating your house with Christmas lights honors God but whatever. And where does Santa come in? If you really want to celebrate God on Christmas than you should stop practicing the pegans' form of celebrating their gods and start HONORING your God without any of their traditions.
Stop concentrating so much on Christ's birth.....Don't you know that his birth is incomplete without his death?  
His birth wouldn't mean anything without his death. His birth didn't wash away your sins. Christ's blood when he died did. If you're going to celebrate Him being born don't forget the death part. Too many Christians are getting caught up in worldly things and taking their eyes off the one who died for them. I don't mean to be offensive but you're coming off as weak christians.
 
Worshipping other Gods
 You're not directly worshipping the sun but you are skating on thin ice. And it just makes sense to me that if you're a christain you wouldn't be coming anywhere close to anything questionable. I don't believe you can worship anything unless you know you're doing it. I do believe that the christians who celebrate Christmas are not worshipping pegans gods. But no one has proven to me that you're worshipping God. My question would be
"Who are you worshipping?"  or  "If you're not worshipping God, why are you doing it?"

Oh and must not forget little you

quote:

Cool. That's why I'm against Wicca and other pagan religions. That's why I'm against going to palm readers, and the like. That's why I am strongly opposed to reading horoscopes, etc. But, fortunately for me, Christmas is not a pagan holiday, nor is it pagan worship, because it honors the one true God. And so, I celebrate Christmas…and I wish all of you a very blessed one.
 
 
I can't believe you won't do palm readings or read horoscopes but you have no problem celebrating a holiday that came from pegans. How does christmas honor God? This I have to hear. The mere fact that the holiday came from pegans should make you not want to have anything to do with it, Ms."Christian".

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(in reply to bibleteen04)
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